EU. In or out?

[moto al]

another referendum would just cloud the issue even further.

It would be a victory for remain because it would be taken seriously.

The 65% of 18-24's that didn't vote would get out of bed, and those that protest voted then had Bregret would answer the question on the ballot paper properly this time.

Easily tips the tiny 1.6 million majority based upon what we now know about the demographics.

yes I agree ,the demographics ,of the out vote ,mostly older working class folk with a race issue , so very sad . God help us all .

[AndyB]

Much as I'd sooner we stayed in the EU there's no way we should have another referendum just so that it can be taken seriously this time :pinch:

You'd hope that people voted according to how they felt leaving the EU would affect them personally and the country overall and we've got to accept and respect their choice.

[Philiptigerrice]

Ralph - that kind of reads (to me at least) like you're proposing that the population is so stupid that they cannot be trusted?

And - that Parliamentarians are Soooo wise, and trustworthy - that they should make the call for us.





To me - thats just an astonishing thing to accuse your countrymen over - just because this one time - you didn't get what you wanted.

Those grapes must be the sourest you've ever tasted mate :blink:




To me - I like to look at issues over time.....

And to think that using this parliamentary system, we've remained one of the safest, strongest, wealthiest and healthiest Top 8 (G8) nations - and maintained this position for almost a thousand years....

Well - its not doing too badly so far is it...




But ya know - maybe we should scrap it - and goto a USA style system - and put someone like Trump in charge with an all new dictatorial type system - on the grounds that the men/man or women in charge are cleverer than the collective common sense of a nation.


Its an interesting proposition.... Lol

[lankyrider]

A Parliamentary system is representative democracy, in which we vote for representatives and they make the decision. You sing the praises of this system at the same time as criticising the Parliamentarian you presumably voted for and the referendum you clearly favoured.

A referendum is direct democracy, and not what the UK has relied on for the past thousand years.

But hey I sincerely hope Brexit works out for us and our wizened countrymen!

[Philiptigerrice]

I sing the praises of it because its worked, for a long time.

I also recognise its weaknesses - and the fallibility & personal economic biases of the MP's.


They were absolutely right to offer this decision up to a Referendum.

The decision was made.


And those who don't like it - have to get over it.



All this hand wringing and weeping, and picking holes in the voters, and accusing the winning majority of stupidity & racism, on the back of nonsense tabloid musings, is frankly cringe worthy.



Its like buying a raffle ticket and asking for the draw to be re done and re done until your number comes out - or losing a race that you entered and asking for that to be re-run until you can win it.

its the absolute anti-thesis to a proper democracy and smacks of toddlers stamping their feet that they didn't win in the pass the parcel.


The worst type of sore loser though, is the one that doesn't just stamp his feet and sulk - but suggests that the whole system be re-designed in order to load a re-run, or future votes, in their favour.

Andy B and Lanky are right in what they say - we voted differently from another I suspect, but to now wish to move on and get cracking - is a very positive & mature attitude & outlook. (thumbs)

It would be nice if more of those on the losing side could show that level of maturity! :whistle:

[Redmurty]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p046xwp5

watch the whole programme on catch

cheers Spud

[-Ralph-]

Much as I'd sooner we stayed in the EU there's no way we should have another referendum just so that it can be taken seriously this time :pinch:

You'd hope that people voted according to how they felt leaving the EU would affect them personally and the country overall and we've got to accept and respect their choice.

Not saying we should, just saying what the result would be, and it's almost foregone conclusion enough to call it fact.

Given you could call it fact, and the government knows this, I do genuinely struggle with the mandate set by the referendum. Not just because I want to stay in the EU, I would struggle if such a tiny majority from the electorate triggered major action from any referendum.

The government are taking us out of the EU, knowing the group of people who it will affect most don't want to do it and that they swing a majority.

But because they didn't get out of bed and vote tough shit?

Sorry, but that's why you don't let the kiddies run the kindergarten. We know the 18-25's can't be trusted they are still kids for whom life is a party! Just like parents make decisions for kids, politicians make decisions for the population.

The electorate can't be trusted to take these decisions, as proved by this referendum which wasn't taken seriously by them. But now we are taking very serious action as a result?

Sorry, but making decisions like this by direct democracy alone is madness, whatever the subject in question.

It needs a parliamentary vote.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[AndyB]

It's hardly surprising that some people have views that are bordering on being racist or if not racist then definitely bigoted when a high percentage of our papers are pushing those views out every day of the week with scare tactics regarding the number of immigrants and the way they behave when they get here.

You don't have to look far to see a paper headlining the increase in the number of names that aren't traditional British names given to new born children or the number of children starting at primary school with only limited skills in the English language but we've always previously been proud of our record of welcoming new arrivals in this country so why not now?

As for the vote; I don't think people who voted to leave are stupid but I do think they made a mistake. That's not meant in a derogatory way and I hope I'm wrong but the referendum is history now and history is written by the winners.

[-Ralph-]

Ralph - that kind of reads (to me at least) like you're proposing that the population is so stupid that they cannot be trusted?

And - that Parliamentarians are Soooo wise, and trustworthy - that they should make the call for us.

To me - thats just an astonishing thing to accuse your countrymen over - just because this one time - you didn't get what you wanted.

This has nothing to do with whether the EU referendum was won/lost, leave/remain, and I said that in my post, I struggle with direct democracy being used to make any major decision like this.

Sour grapes is YOUR deduction from my post having clearly not read what it said. I could suggest you only think the referendum worked because you got the result you wanted, so lets try and be grown up and discuss the rights and wrongs of the process instead of throwing win/lose accusations around?

And yes, the electorate ARE not capable of making these decisions, that is a FACT, they proved it on 23rd June. Aside from protest voters, people who misunderstood the issues, some people are just plain stupid.

The VAST, VAST, majority didn't even know what Article 50 was until it hit the news on the 24th, so how can they be capable of making political and economic decisions for the country?

I don't consider myself capable, I work in the IT industry, not politics, banking, or foreign relations.

Lets just take ONE demographic. Around 4.5 million 18-25 year olds didn't think was important enough to vote. over 100,000 of them decided to go to Glastonbury instead!

You trust our 18-25 year olds to make those decisions for us? :woohoo:

[Old Git Ray]

...........
As for the vote; I don't think people who voted to leave are stupid but I do think they made a mistake. That's not meant in a derogatory way and I hope I'm wrong but the referendum is history now and history is written by the winners.

I voted out but not because I did not want to be part of Europe, but because I am sick to death of being bullied by Brussels and Strasbourg.
I like being part of Europe but am willing to give that up for a return to more self determination. You may think I made a mistake, you may be right but I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Do we really need the likes of Greece's government who clearly cannot control their own finances to have a hand in the running of ours. The needs and wants of all the 27 member states are different and there needs to be some autonomy to run and control their own affairs.

If Brussels reformed itself and dissolved many of it's overarching, self proclaimed powers then I would reconsider. However, a megalomaniac will always be a megalomaniac so I cannot see it changing anytime soon.

If we went back to something like what we initially voted for in the 70s I would vote in. Sadly I cannot see that happening unless other EU members go down a similar road to the one we are going down now and Brussels miraculously wakes up.