To quarantine or not?

[Barcelona Pat]

Please don't leave the UK. The UK is the rabid covid hub of Europe at the moment.

Joking aside, it's a bit of a free-for-all in Europe, until you are stopped. Even then, provided you give them the answers they want to hear, you are waved on. I only travel out of necessity now, for shopping or to earn money.

There are a couple of things to consider. Will your trip expose you to covid? Will your trip help spread covid which will then increase restrictions for others?

Good points - which should always be in the front of your minds

[Barcelona Pat]

It would be interesting to hear what you think of this article, Alan and Pat...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... c-mistakes

A well written article, with many reflections that mirror my own. However, I don´t agree that no one saw this coming (makes a good headline though) - they have been talking here about local outbreaks and second wave etc long before the realities of recent weeks.

I´ve been quite impressed by Sanchez who presents as an open and honest politician - hence his admission about mistakes (or hindsight that things could have been done differently). I can´t imagine any leader getting it right every time in such unprecidented circumstances - and personally I find it refreshing to listen to someone who admits that. Perhaps why people respond to him?

I don´t get the same sense from Torra in catalonia - there seems to be an inherent reticence to collaborate with the state (including taking up offers of additional support earlier in the track and trace approach). At least now he seems to be focussing more on people, and less on politics, so that should help.

The article is very good on the economic impacts - and on how the 17 communities here have different approaches and levels of devolution - which can cause issue but is not something that can be changed in the light of Covid-19. Perhaps why Sanchez argued for so long to maintain the national state of emergency, as that provided a common approach? Clearly though, that couldn´t continue - and it is now the responsibility of regional leaders (such as Torra here) to step up to the plate.

In every country that I have looked at regarding responses to the pandemic (and there have been a few - a work thing), one thing strikes me as common, and that is it is highlighting pre-existing issues with instrastructure, governance and resources. Those who appear to be responding best are those that (arguably) were already recognising and tackling some of their wicked issues - those who are struggling appear to continue in denial of the inherent societal problems. I put Spain in the middle of that desk somewhere - it is recognising issues, but has not yet been able to resolve many of them.

[daveuprite]

It would be interesting to hear what you think of this article, Alan and Pat...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... c-mistakes

A well written article, with many reflections that mirror my own. However, I don´t agree that no one saw this coming (makes a good headline though) - they have been talking here about local outbreaks and second wave etc long before the realities of recent weeks.

I´ve been quite impressed by Sanchez who presents as an open and honest politician - hence his admission about mistakes (or hindsight that things could have been done differently). I can´t imagine any leader getting it right every time in such unprecidented circumstances - and personally I find it refreshing to listen to someone who admits that. Perhaps why people respond to him?

I don´t get the same sense from Torra in catalonia - there seems to be an inherent reticence to collaborate with the state (including taking up offers of additional support earlier in the track and trace approach). At least now he seems to be focussing more on people, and less on politics, so that should help.

The article is very good on the economic impacts - and on how the 17 communities here have different approaches and levels of devolution - which can cause issue but is not something that can be changed in the light of Covid-19. Perhaps why Sanchez argued for so long to maintain the national state of emergency, as that provided a common approach? Clearly though, that couldn´t continue - and it is now the responsibility of regional leaders (such as Torra here) to step up to the plate.

In every country that I have looked at regarding responses to the pandemic (and there have been a few - a work thing), one thing strikes me as common, and that is it is highlighting pre-existing issues with instrastructure, governance and resources. Those who appear to be responding best are those that (arguably) were already recognising and tackling some of their wicked issues - those who are struggling appear to continue in denial of the inherent societal problems. I put Spain in the middle of that desk somewhere - it is recognising issues, but has not yet been able to resolve many of them.

Very interesting Pat. As you say, those regions or countries where pre-existing health and social services were already strong and well-funded have naturally coped better with the arrival of the epidemic. A good example is Canada vs U.S. Canadians are used to a properly funded health service which does not discriminate between haves and have-nots - as happens south of the border. And people in Canada have largely done what they were told without whining about their 'individual rights to freedom' (which is basically a right to kill others) as so many Americans do. Cases, deaths and mortality rates are dramatically lower in Canada.

I saw this picture the other day of two tourist boats passing each other next to the Niagara Falls. As you know the US / Canadian border is right there, and one tourist boat company is Canada-based while the Maid of the Mist boats are American. The Canadian boat had its maximum covid allowance of 6 tourists aboard (out of its normal ~150 possible capacity). The US boat was packed to the gunnels with kagool-wearing americans swarming all over each other with a totally different set of 'rules' in play.



But when the US passengers start suffering from Covid not all of them will have sufficient private medical insurance to survive, while the Canadians' primary health care is provided for.

[AlanHolt]

It has been interesting seeing how each country handles covid. Andorra had the highest death rater per 1m people for some time, but they closed the borders, implemented one way systems on footpaths, tested every person, then did antibody tests, and they haven't had a covid death since 16th June.
Spain, like many countries, was prepared to open for tourists in order to try and save its economy. This didn't happen, hotel bookings are down 92% compared to last year, and the recent rise in infections is further damaging things. Had they maintained the state of alarm for another month, would things have been different? We will never know.
Personally, life under lockdown was easier. Go shopping once every 2-3 weeks, stay at home and avoid everyone. During that time, both myself and my girlfriend had 'something', despite being isolated and careful. Luckily, it was just severe fatigue and headaches which only lasted 5 weeks.
As soon as restrictions were eased, despite the huge fines (starting at €600), there were some who wouldn't wear a mask, would hug and kiss when they saw friends etc. More worrying were the people who said they didn't believe covid was real, or they were prepared to get it and if it was their time to die, they would accept it. And now, there are still those who don't seem to care about how their actions may affect the community and country. Masks seem to be an option away from the big cities. In places which have now reverted back to phase 2, people are actually socialising more than under full lockdown.
A friend in the UK who tested positive for covid and was ill for 7 weeks, thought she had made a full but slow recovery. Unfortunately, despite now testing negative for covid, her symptoms have come back. Her doctor said that she hasn't contracted it again, its simply still active within her and they don't know whether it will continue to come back periodically until there is a cure. This could make her unemployable if she is bedbound for almost 2 months every 2 months. Its quite a scary virus, how it affects everyone differently. If I had it, I had it very mild, but I still wouldn't want anyone else to get it.

[Mosel Bikes]

This might be regarded as hijacking or at least piggy-backing on the core of the OP, but it has thrown up some interesting side, but related issues generally, to do with travel advice / regulations and their application. So here goes - admin can remove it if so.

Thanks Tramp. Different circumstances though. I don't have dual nationality/right to citizenship, as I've been technically resident in the UK whilst for several years I've actually split time between Germany and the UK, sometimes for months on end. If I'd been resident in Germany for 5 years - as I presume your relatives were/are - I'd likely qualify to stay. But that's just part of the issue for me. My wife has dual nationality/citizenship. She can be resident in either, but not both, but can travel and stay freely (UK rules when in the UK, German rules when she's in Germany). I can only be resident in the UK and can't travel and stay freely as I have done so far. My wife doesn't want to be permanently resident in Germany (will miss family) whereas I'd go on a permanent basis on the blink of an eye. The compromise solution has been to stay for lengthy periods in each at times that suit us (mainly Summer in Germany and Winter in the UK). From 1 January, we can no longer do that. It's even more difficult because we have seven rescue greyhounds who travel with us and the new regs will make that very difficult and costly (blood tests instead of just rabies jabs/additional vet certificates/showing all documents on all border crossings in transit - which won't be at the border but a nominated town, as the countries we travel through won't have border posts, Holland, Belgium then Germany), so travelling and staying just once a year for several months would be the answer, but can't be done under the new arrangements. We've a house in both countries and the fixed costs (local taxes, water and sewerage, utilities, insurance, garbage collection, etc - all still payable in Germany even if you're not there and not using them) and inevitable increased expense will mean we'll have to look at whether we keep it on in Germany.
This poses a question that perhaps someone can help with, Government guidelines on travel to EU countries post Brexit says:
''If you’re a tourist, you will not need a visa for short trips to EU countries, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland. You’ll be able to stay for up to 90 days in any 180-day period.''
So when does that 180 day period start? Presumably the first day after 1 January that you step foot in an EU country? That's easy to understand if you're then staying for say the full 90 days allowed and you can work out when you have to leave and when you can return again. But what happens if you're like Pat? and travel frequently for shorter periods? Does the 180 days still count from first day in an EU country after January 1? Thereafter, who does the counting and who checks the records and what are the possible consequences if they accuse you of non-compliance? Ideally, I'd like to pop over myself for a few days in early January, say that my 180 days starts then, return to the UK, go back to Germany on say 10 May and stay until 10 August, then say my next 180 days start counting the day after but I've chosen to front-load them this time and will leave Germany on say 8 November - which would give me something close to what I have done so far, staying around 6 months in each.
If anyone can throw light on this I'd be grateful. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Mosel Bikes...

Don't you have German dual nationality? My wife's German Aunt, cousins have UK passports but not German and have lived in Germany for many years.. They where asked by UK High commission to sign a form or something that allows them to live and work in Germany after the brexit Dec deadline?

They are very uk patriotic having been born in UK and married Germans etc..

[daveuprite]

''If you’re a tourist, you will not need a visa for short trips to EU countries, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland. You’ll be able to stay for up to 90 days in any 180-day period.''
So when does that 180 day period start? Presumably the first day after 1 January that you step foot in an EU country?

Hi Mosel - Yep, as far as I'm aware the clock will start ticking as you enter the EU area from third country britain. A computer record will be kept each time your passport is scanned in and out, and a tally will be added to each time. Of course if it's organised as efficiently as most UK procedures these days, it will go wrong or be farmed out to some rubbish private sector blood-sucking firm with tories on the Board and the system will collapse expensively after a while. But that's what's supposed to happen I understand. Loads of hospitality businesses here in France stand to suffer a double covid/brexit hit and it will ruin the plans of thousands of second home owners and those with complex work arrangements between multiple countries, who previously enjoyed freedom of movement and friction-less trade. But that's what your brexiters voted for...

[Mosel Bikes]

Thanks daveuprite.
Pretty much as I thought. What a shitter.
Ah well, another few pints then, courtesy of Yorkshire Heart, in my little piece of sanctuary 'The Greyhound' in the garden, with my friends 'The Magnificent Seven'! Becoming a daily habit, but what the hell, the UK and its 'government' (ha ha, a joke, right?) drive me to it.

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[Tramp]

Mosel...

I've today been in contact with what was defra about pets passports... They clarified upto Dec 31 it's normal rules apply outbound from UK.. Inbound from Europe as of January 1st is as normal vets check and worming... But from Jan 1st outbound all dogs need a blood test to confirm rabies jabs have taken... We have used tunnel and pets passport 4 x year for last 15 years... We go out Dec 16 return Jan 6th...

Hope that helps the defra folks are really helpfull..... The European vets are a vexed as our in UK lol..

[Barcelona Pat]

Nice dogs Mosel. Hope you can find a suitable workaround in due course... though still grates that we have to do that - feel for you!

Talking about that, and the title of this thread, today I'm back in quarantine in the UK! As usual, we have our summer holiday in west Wales in a couple of weeks with extended family - so given the change in rules, we decided to come to Wales early so we can get quarantine out of the way while I am homeworking and before my annual leave starts. Lots of faff and yet more expense, but at least we will get to see family and my daughter can enjoy her new bike and the beach in August.

So I chose quarantine... but in reality, what choice did I have?

Interesting thread - thanks all.

Pat

[daveuprite]

The real issue, IMO, will be whether or not people actually do quarantine on their return from Spanish holidays. I think a lot of them won't.

A reasonably paid manager with a proper salaried job will be able to isolate at home, possibly work from home by computer, with the support of an understanding employer.

But a self-employed white van man electrician whose wages are earned from job to job will lose big time if he takes 2 weeks out in quarantine. He will be very tempted to carry on working as usual.

None of which would apply if the track and trace authorities actually checked on the whereabouts of each quarantining person, but they haven't committed the staff to doing that. As returning holidaymakers pass through the airports they are not being checked for covid, or for raised temperature, and many are not being required to submit forms - all of which tells them that the authorities don't care, so why should they? It's like a great big message to those workers with no furlough wage protection that they can get away with breaking quarantine.

A policy which has no consequences or enforcement is a pointless policy. We hear Johnson and others saying things like "I totally trust the british people to do the right thing" and then the next news report shows jam-packed beaches full of british people who can't be trusted to do the right thing. When will they realise that in this era of selfishness and individualism (encouraged by those same politicians!) trust in the better instincts of 'society' is no longer a useful tool for protecting everyone?