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Re: NEW F700GS and F800GS
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:14 pm
by Tim Cullis
Chris S wrote:fyi, 650 internal ratios are not the same as the 800, I believe.
No, they are the same, it's only the sprockets that are different (just checked the original press releases). Not being particularly technical I don't know the technicalities of swapping internal ratios, but what I do know is that I've never met anyone using a bike offroad who wishes his bike had a higher first gear ratio.
With a six-speed box BMW should have been able to achieve both low 1st/2nd gears and high 5th/6th gears.
Re: NEW F700GS and F800GS
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:43 pm
by PaulinBont
Sprockette wrote:Very pretty but I'm not sure about modern bikes. It seems to me that most manufacturers are currently building bikes to sell only on their image. If someone was really interested in making a real on/off-road suited, round the world touring bike (which is basically what "adventure" bikes are meant to be) then the R80GS and it's ilk would be the mould, not 1/4 tonne supertankers. I thought BMW were going in the right direction with the HP2 thing but then it seems they just started catering for looks, fashion and Ewanophiles, even a lot of dyed-in-the-wool BMW fans are commenting about current falling levels of reliability.
Now the other manufacturers are following suit, making bikes that look the part and are capable to a degree but really could be much better if built for purpose rather than built for looks. It's all getting a bit silly and I for one will not seriously be considering any of the "adventure" bikes currently on the market strictly for those reasons. I was at one point but not any more. I think I would much rather modify a road-biased bike or a smaller capacity off-roader to suit me and the type of riding I would be doing rather than put up with some expensive piece of artwork that's not as good as it could be.
But these are my opinions, I know a lot of people really don't have issues with what's currently happening to the "adventure bike market" and there's nothing wrong with that, not trying to put anyone's bike down, after all, all bikes are fantastic aren't they!
There are too many labels and pigeon holes I think.
AJP have obviously discovered that there is a place in the market for an ultra-lite adventure bike capable of going off-road and yet also up to RTW trips. Low weight, low price: just what the market is crying out for in order to reverse the 'quarter ton supertanker class'
I like that quote !
Re: NEW F700GS and F800GS
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:31 pm
by Chris S
No, they are the same
Oh, I'm only quoting what I'm sure you wrote on ukgsers a while back
... the gears on the F650GS twin are higher than … the F800GS due to different sized … sprockets used in conjunction with the close ratio gearbox from the F800S and ST [road bikes]
I took that to mean the 800GS did not have the S/ST CR gearbox, but maybe I was wrong.
That made sense seeing as the 650 was pitched as more roady and the 800's characteristics are said to be more 'revvy' (not all down to power characteristics?).
As for most modern 'adv' bikes being all mouth and no trousers, I think most of us recognise it's long been a fashion on which manufactures (and mags like ABR) are capitalising and to which buyers are responding. Good luck to them all. Most 4x4s are bought for the same 'I could if I wanted to (but I probably won't)' motives. Fifteen years ago it was a 200mph sports bike, but most weren't racing.
I actually thought that compared to GS12s et al, the low-seated ~200-kilo 650 would have made a great RTW compromise (once you junk the seat). And unless you're seeking out tough racks, most so-called 'off-roading' out in the overland world is no more than dirt roads between villages which a loaded 650 will manage fine on the right tyres.
Having said all that, I happen to be following your suggestion and modifying a cheap, old road bike because in the end that's all the bike that you need. I'm not sure the ALP is any better than a good old TTR or DR, I got the impression it was a rally bike.
... after all, all bikes are fantastic aren't they!
Clearly you haven't ridden a late '70s MZ ;- ))
Re: NEW F700GS and F800GS
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:34 pm
by Womble
The different looks to really be in the increase in torque between the F650GS and 700, on the graph looks like that would make a significant difference; love torque, it's what makes riding twins and singles such fun
Re: NEW F700GS and F800GS
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:07 pm
by Tim Cullis
Chris S wrote:Oh, I'm only quoting what I'm sure you wrote on ukgsers a while back
... the gears on the F650GS twin are higher than … the F800GS due to different sized … sprockets used in conjunction with the close ratio gearbox from the F800S and ST [road bikes]
I took that to mean the 800GS did not have the S/ST CR gearbox, but maybe I was wrong.
Yes, you misunderstood. BMW took the close ratio box for the F800S/ST, put it into the F650/800GS and merely played with the sprockets to provide some 'market differential' between the two GS models. This has been one of my bugbears of the F-GS models. The F800GS ideally needs higher 5th/6th gears and the F650GS ideally needs lower 1st/2nd gears. With a six-speed box BMW should have been able to provide wider spaced ratios for both variants, after all my Tenere manages quite well with only a five-speed box.
Lowering the F650GS gearing for the F700GS is 'robbing Peter to pay Paul', you get lower bottom ratios at the expense of also lower top ratios.
In an ideal world both variants would have a first gear quite a bit lower than the F800GS and a top gear a bit higher than the F650GS.
Re: NEW F700GS and F800GS
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:27 pm
by Neiljohnuk
Nigel wrote:What happens if you have the ABS switched off, lock up the wheels and have an accident, are you insured?
Dunno, but the intent is to allow experienced riders to switch it off when on loose off road surfaces where the plough effect piles material in front of the tyres increasing braking effectiveness, something that ABS prevents.
Re: NEW F700GS and F800GS
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:30 pm
by Neiljohnuk
Tim Cullis wrote:
Lowering the F650GS gearing for the F700GS is 'robbing Peter to pay Paul', you get lower bottom ratios at the expense of also lower top ratios.
In an ideal world both variants would have a first gear quite a bit lower than the F800GS and a top gear a bit higher than the F650GS.
I'd love a lower 1st/2nd, but I can't see BMW playing that game, gone down to 15 on the front and it's still too tall on my 650 twin, going up to a 47 on the back as well is my next move, not interested in the high top speed it's got as standard...
Re: NEW F700GS and F800GS
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:03 pm
by katyotter
I'm pretty keen on the 700 as well but somewhat narked that I'm unable to buy a comfort pack with the lowered seat model. It's a lot more to buy the accessories separately. They claim it's because the comfort pack includes a centre stand which you can't have on the low version - I said they could surely just leave it off and give it to me so that I could recoup a bit of cost by selling it. I don't think they thought I was being serious. :dry:
Re: NEW F700GS and F800GS
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:11 pm
by Neiljohnuk
Yup, they wouldn't supply it on lowered F650GS's either, didn't stop me fitting one!
<--- As you can see!
And now running 15/47 gearing, cruising at 55-60mph its returning 70 plus mpg, better than before at that speed, and even better around town.
Re: NEW F700GS and F800GS
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:16 pm
by katyotter
Yeah, I had one and I had the comfort pack which, at that time, didn't include the centre stand.