One year on was it worth it?

[Redmurty]

so it's ok for the Catalans to regain what they had before but not the British :whistle: we used to be independent to (thumbs)

Listen to what old Moggers said last night on Question time (thumbs)

cheers Spud

FFS Spud, the UK still has independence. It has border controls. It can choose its own rules regarding immigration. It can choose which people get free healthcare and which don't. It still has its own currency. Road signs are still in imperial measurements. The UK is not ruled by the EU.

does the ECJ have precedence over our courts YES do we have to pay money to the EU yes can we negotiate a trade deal no, and is the future of Europe to be a US of E so we would be loosing even more of our independence (thumbs)


so I say again it's ok for the Catalans to tried to get back what they had but not the British

Will the Catalans automatically be ejected from the EU if they vote for independence and good luck to them if they do vote out (thumbs)

cheers Spud

[Richard Simpson Mark II]

Countdown to catastrophe....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... gle-market

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/ ... EU-demands

listen to what Andrew Bailey says (thumbs)

cheers Spud

What he says is "in his view" with no supporting evidence.

It took 7 years for the EU to negotiate the FT agreement with Canada...partly because every state in the EU was able to pick over the detail in the agreement (so much for that argument that individual states within the EU 'have no say")

The (UK-led) negotiations with Japan started in 2013 and only finished yesterday.

In both those cases the deal left both parties better off so it was in everyone's interest to do a deal quickly. The only arguments were amicable ones about who got the best benefits. The UK exit from the EU will leave both parties worse off...each will be trying to load as much of the pain as possible on the other party. The EU will, quite rightly, take the attitude that this crisis is of the UK's making, so the UK must pick up the entire tab. The UK's negotiators will be faced with a near impossible task in getting anything out of the EU, unless we agree to continuing paying what we do now and forego the 'Thatcher rebate'.

We've now got less than 2 years to do the deal with the EU. If the negotiations fail, it will be far worse for us than them. Meanwhile, we can continue to trade with the world under current arrangements made by the EU, but also need to commence negotiations with every major trading company in the world for completion to the same deadline, or we revert to WTO rules including 20% customs tariffs in our dealings with the rest of the world the day we exit the EU.

We have no doubt committed the 'best minds' in the Government and civil service to working on the deal with the EU...so who is handling the deals with the rest of the world, including the USA, China, India etc? All those nations have a protectionist mindset, and they are more important trading partners for us than we will ever be for them.

Have those negotiations even started yet? Is there even a schedule for them?

Face it, unless we back away from the cliff edge, we are going down big style.

[AlanHolt]

does the ECJ have precedence over our courts YES do we have to pay money to the EU yes can we negotiate a trade deal no, and is the future of Europe to be a US of E so we would be loosing even more of our independence (thumbs)


so I say again it's ok for the Catalans to tried to get back what they had but not the British

Will the Catalans automatically be ejected from the EU if they vote for independence and good luck to them if they do vote out (thumbs)

cheers Spud

Will the UK still have to pay the EU if it leaves, YES.
ECJ takes precedence over UK courts IF the government fails to comply with EU laws. The ECJ does not have the power to strike down national law.
Junkers proposal for a US of E wasn't adopted. It never even got off the ground. Its scaremongering.

The difference between the Catalan vote for independence and Brexit is that the UK already had what Catalan wants. If you want a real comparison, use Scottish independence. They want to govern and finance themselves, they want to break away from the UK in the same way Catalonia wants to break away from Spain.

[WIBO]

so it's ok for the Catalans to regain what they had before but not the British :whistle: we used to be independent to (thumbs)

Listen to what old Moggers said last night on Question time (thumbs)

cheers Spud

FFS Spud, the UK still has independence. It has border controls. It can choose its own rules regarding immigration. It can choose which people get free healthcare and which don't. It still has its own currency. Road signs are still in imperial measurements. The UK is not ruled by the EU.

does the ECJ have precedence over our courts YES do we have to pay money to the EU yes can we negotiate a trade deal no, and is the future of Europe to be a US of E so we would be loosing even more of our independence (thumbs)


so I say again it's ok for the Catalans to tried to get back what they had but not the British

Will the Catalans automatically be ejected from the EU if they vote for independence and good luck to them if they do vote out (thumbs)

cheers Spud

As an aside, the Catalans and Basque are such a small part of Spain compared to the whole of the country. I often wonder at people who want that independance but do thay want actual and full independence, i.e. not only run their own province but accept no money from an outrside source in order to do so?

I know that if I lived there and I was asked, my first question would be how much would my taxes will go up in order to now pay for the new bureaucrat system that would now be in place and tallied with the tier of new salaries. I'd also like to know about the running of all the existing infrastructure along with new future additional things from the likes of new hospitals, libraries, schools etc.

I imagine e.g. if the likes of another small province like Ulster wanted the same......how can the population there pay for the same conditions by itself ....more taxes and from what employment there is can it match the costs?.......Can a handful of factories and businesses here and there REALLY pay for all of what's needed etc?

To counter that one could use the example of Malta...they get along just fine....but with help from Europe. Before that they were poorer due to the proportion of monies earned by the populace. If one took the Europe out of that equation they'd be much worse off.

A larger land mass with more people, business and therefore taxes might be able to do it, e.g. Scotland?

In Spain IMO they'd either tax their local people too much or still need to get money from Madrid, thus making the independence cry not what they wanted it to be....but only partially independent.

Right thinking people wouldn't vote for more taxes........I know I wouldn't.

The simple maths is that it's all about proportion and as usual, money thereafter.







.

[Redmurty]

we can't start negotiations as the EU keeps telling us that, so how can they start?
Remember we are actually still in the EU so the deal with Japan applies to us, so why would that instantly stop after Brexit it would be very simple to continue to come to an agreement, businesses do it all the time and far quicker than the EU. And as for countries having a say the EU stance is that if you vote for something they want you will vote again until you give them the answer they want, happened in Ireland has happened in Holland and it happened with CITA where the Wallons voted against the agreement but where over ruled by the EU.
Not all WTO tariffs are 20% far from it and the trade deal with Japan is not tariff free, it's a free trade deal
any 2 entities that are doing trade will always try to get the best deal for themselves (thumbs)
cheers Spud

[AlanHolt]

In Spain IMO they'd either tax their local people too much or still need to get money from Madrid, thus making the independence cry not what they wanted it to be....but only partially independent.

If Yorkshire was the industrial and financial hub of the UK, and it was supporting the London and the rest of the country but having very little say it how it was run, thats how Spain is. Madrid pulls all the strings, but Catalonia is keeping it afloat. Plus Catalonia used to be independent. Drawing a comparison between Brexit and Catalan independence is like comparing a C90 to a Fireblade.

[Redmurty]

cheers Spud

[AlanHolt]

ECJ takes precedence over UK courts IF the government fails to comply with EU laws

therefore we are not independent if another Government can over rule our own :pinch:

we will still have to comply with EU regs when we leave if we want to do business with them like any country in the world

they said Brexit would never happen (thumbs) they say US of E will never happen so why is the EU continually working towards it ?

Cheers Spud

The ECJ doesn't tell our courts how to uphold our laws. They don't tell the UK what laws we must have. They simply step in if the UK doesn't abide by EU laws that it agreed to. Its so simple, i can't understand why you haven't got it.

Brexit hasn't happened, the only thing thats happened is leave vote won the referendum.

Were you drinking heavily last night Spud? On the whole, i enjoy your contributions to the forum, but today you seem to have lost all rational thought.

[Richard Simpson Mark II]

"not tariff free, it's a free trade deal"
The definition of free trade is 'trading free of tariff'.
There seems to be some confusion about what Brexit entails among the people who support it.
We could leave the EU, but continue under current trading agreements, which cover our dealings with the EU and the rest of the world. Norway and Switzerland have these arrangements, where they pay (heavily) for access to the Single Market, but have no say in how that money is spent, and get no rebate.
But, we are not going to 'do a Norway'. May said "Brexit means Brexit" and we leave the Single Market and Customs Union even if we revert to WTO in our dealing with the EU because "No deal is better than a bad deal."
So, we can't carry on with existing agreements either with the EU or the rest of the world. We've got a very short interval in which we have to agree to whatever terms the EU imposes upon us or we revert to WTO and 20%. But never mind: "we have taken back control" in pretty much the same way as someone lying on the floor getting their head kicked is 'in control".
Corbyn supports this view, and recently sacked Labour front-benchers who voted otherwise.
We can prepare to kiss our automotive manufacturing sector goodbye. I suspect governments in countries such as Poland are already lining up EU funding for their bids to get Toyota, Nissan and Honda to move their British factories to the European Union. The component suppliers will follow in short order. Many thousands of jobs will go.
And all for what, exactly?
Oh, yes...'Making Britain Great again".
Our one hope is that it has been determined that the referendum result is 'advisory only'. Hopefully Parliament will look at the deal that our negotiators bring back from Brussels and decide that some advice is best ignored!

[Simon_100]

As an aside, the Catalans and Basque are such a small part of Spain compared to the whole of the country. I often wonder at people who want that independance but do thay want actual and full independence, i.e. not only run their own province but accept no money from an outrside source in order to do so?

I know that if I lived there and I was asked, my first question would be how much would my taxes will go up in order to now pay for the new bureaucrat system that would now be in place and tallied with the tier of new salaries. I'd also like to know about the running of all the existing infrastructure along with new future additional things from the likes of new hospitals, libraries, schools etc.

I imagine e.g. if the likes of another small province like Ulster wanted the same......how can the population there pay for the same conditions by itself ....more taxes and from what employment there is can it match the costs?.......Can a handful of factories and businesses here and there REALLY pay for all of what's needed etc?

To counter that one could use the example of Malta...they get along just fine....but with help from Europe. Before that they were poorer due to the proportion of monies earned by the populace. If one took the Europe out of that equation they'd be much worse off.

A larger land mass with more people, business and therefore taxes might be able to do it, e.g. Scotland?

In Spain IMO they'd either tax their local people too much or still need to get money from Madrid, thus making the independence cry not what they wanted it to be....but only partially independent.

Right thinking people wouldn't vote for more taxes........I know I wouldn't.

The simple maths is that it's all about proportion and as usual, money thereafter.

Actually the Catalan - and now the Basque - question is heading way off topic, but just for general info both regions (they're not 'prove aces WIBO, nit picking I know ...) punch GDP well above their weight cpm`pared t thier physical size and populations. Comparative stats are hard to find but Wikipedia puts it quite well. The figures take some unpicking but as you will see between Catalonia and The Basque Country - you might as well include Navarre into the Basque Country as it's half Basque anyway - bit don't tell anyone I did that! :whistle:

One statistic that's worth teasing out is the percentage difference in GDP per head of population between the regions and the average for the whole of Spain:+

Basque Country -- +34.4%
Madrid ------------ + 29.0%
Navarre ----------- + 27.7%
Catalonia --------- + 19.7%

The next one is Aragon, which is huge and almost empty - that's why I go there to chill out! (thumbs) - at just 12.2 and then they pretty much all go into negatives, ending with Extremadura with a massive -32.4%

Madrid is a total anomaly as its wealth derives mainly from the fact that most Spanish businesses, and a good many foreign ones, have their head offices there while the real wealth is created in the regions. So if you portion say, half of Madrid's GDP, which is very generous, out to where it really belongs, mainly Catalonia, you get an idea of just how poor 'Spain' really is and how rich the Basque Country and Catalonia really are ... No wonder the centre wants to keep control.

And talking of tanks, from a Daily Telegraph report of two days ago,

"In Madrid, María Dolores de Cospedal, the Spanish defence minister, issued a veiled threat of force.She used an official event to note that the Armed Forces were tasked with “protecting the values of democracy and the Constitution, but also the integrity and sovereignty” of Spain."

She also mentioned the Guardia Civil, which are also part of the armed forces, and it should be remembered that in February Prime Minister Rajoy threatened to take direct control of the Catalonia police force, the Mosss d'Esquadra, which operates in place of the G.C. here. From El Mundo, which is fairly 'independent' - :whistle: - as far as the Spanish press goes:

"The government is running out of patience. Rajoy is willing to keep the offer of dialogue with the Generalitat, although with very little hope, but at the same time has a plan for a strong response to every illegal step from Catalonia. The objective is to ensure that in no case will the referendum be held. This time there will be no ballot boxes and the Executive is even willing to intervene the Ministry of Education and precinct the polling stations, or take control of the Mossos."

OK, I'll get me coat ...

Simon

PS the Caledonia stats would be up there with the Basque Country if is weren't for so many poor sods working for buttons ninth badly paying tourism sector, in which Catalonia leads the other regions by far - many might find that surprising but it's true! - and lots of lots of piss-poor farmers, including one Senyor A. Holt by the sound of it! (thumbs)