EU. In or out?

Anything goes, and mine's a Guinness.
User avatar
garyboy
Posts: 2314
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:14 pm
Location: Pontypridd
Has thanked: 863 times
Been thanked: 349 times

Re: EU. In or out?

Post by garyboy » Wed May 15, 2019 2:14 pm

it has become very difficult to know real news from fake news … Lies have always been with us, and bad propaganda has caused the death of many people, and take over of countries .. but now it has reached a new level, as social media make it so easy .. not to mention fotoshop and false videos .etc etc etc. .. so i can understand peoples reticence to accept presented work as fact ...... but only when it suits them, i would guess.

what i find disconcerting is that SO many people, in the UK and elsewhere, are not willing to accept the will of the majority in the UK.
this is anti-democratic.

they even question the word `will` and `majority` as well as `democracy` etc .. twisting the meanings to suit their own agendas and biases. .. they will vilify any person, personally, that expounds the simple truth.

the UK voted to leave the EU.

Adventure Bike Rider New Issue Out Now
User avatar
OB1
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:37 am
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk
Has thanked: 500 times
Been thanked: 230 times

Re: EU. In or out?

Post by OB1 » Wed May 15, 2019 2:28 pm

garyboy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:14 pm
it has become very difficult to know real news from fake news …

It has also become very easy for anyone to fact-check a piece of news or an article if only they could be bothered. Unfortunately, if it confirms their bias, they have little incentive to ensure the item's credibility.

garyboy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:14 pm
what i find disconcerting is that SO many people, in the UK and elsewhere, are not willing to accept the will of the majority in the UK.
this is anti-democratic.

they even question the word `will` and `majority` as well as `democracy` etc .. twisting the meanings to suit their own agendas and biases. .. they will vilify any person, personally, that expounds the simple truth.

the UK voted to leave the EU.

I will argue this until I'm blue in the face and you know what I will say... :lol:
A • AND • B • CDN • CH • CN • CY • CYM • CZ • D • DK • E • EST • ET • F • FIN • GR • HK • HR • I • IL • IRL • L • LT • LV • M • N • N-IRL • NL • P • PL • Q • RSM • S • SCO • SCV • SLO • TR • USA • YU
https://ob1uk.wordpress.com

scutty
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:27 pm
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 104 times

Re: EU. In or out?

Post by scutty » Wed May 15, 2019 2:34 pm

Ok, I'll bite

You say the UK voted to leave the EU, how would you like us to leave?

Which of the 2016 Leave presented plans would you like us to follow?

What would you like to do about the Irish border and the GF agreement?

I'm not sure the last 3 years could've made it any clearer how complex a process this is, and how a simple binary choice couldn't possibly describe the result 'the people' wanted.

I am certain, with Facebook adds, I could get more than 50% of the UK population to vote to get a free Lamborghini for everyone. I don't think I would have to explain how I'd do that, where would get the money from or how I get Lamborghini to make 66 million cars but I bet everyone would vote for it! Then I can just sit there and expect the government to delivery our cars, Lambo means Lambo after all.

Now yes, that is a crass argument, but it contains the same amount of detailed information in it as the majority of the leaflets that came through my door before the 2016 vote

And before you shove the word democracy in my face I'll let you know, one of the rights a free society bestows on me, and everyone else, is the right to change our minds.

User avatar
garyboy
Posts: 2314
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:14 pm
Location: Pontypridd
Has thanked: 863 times
Been thanked: 349 times

Re: EU. In or out?

Post by garyboy » Wed May 15, 2019 5:40 pm

scutty wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:34 pm
Ok,

You say the UK voted to leave the EU, how would you like us to leave?

I heard a good reply to this `trick question` just yesterday … Leave means.. to leave the EU and all its institutions.

Which of the 2016 Leave presented plans would you like us to follow?

It was a simple binary option presented to the voting population of the UK .. Leave or Remain. .. Mr Cameron was not expecting the `Leave` result and stood down. Had he anticipated the result, he may have phrased the leave options.

What would you like to do about the Irish border and the GF agreement?

Personally, I would like to see the irish border removed, so that Ireland is a united independent country, free of british colonial rule. I have always wondered why the English wish to retain hold of the small N I area, and presumed that it was because of Tory big business interests, but apparently it is mostly small businesses that thrive there. Of course I wish to see unionist interests represented and protected, so that they can also thrive in what is said to be a beautiful area (not been to Ireland). The GF agreement would then not be needed … unfortunately, this is not an ideal world, and I am sure the troubles and strife will continue, as this seems to be human nature?

I'm not sure the last 3 years could've made it any clearer how complex a process this is, and how a simple binary choice couldn't possibly describe the result 'the people' wanted.


Any process is only as complex as the participants wish it to be. … the 2016 referendum was an initial-preference choice given to the eligible voters of the UK. How that is to be achieved is the next part of negotiations that cannot start until the Withdrawal Agreement is passed. .. if ever!

..
Now yes, that is a crass argument, but it contains the same amount of detailed information in it as the majority of the leaflets that came through my door before the 2016 vote


The majority of leaflets came from the government which spent £10million of taxpayers money on their `remain` agenda.

And before you shove the word democracy in my face I'll let you know, one of the rights a free society bestows on me, and everyone else, is the right to change our minds.


I am sorry that you feel that `democracy` is being shoved in your face, Andy ... and hope you are well and prospering ... and i agree that democracy has the right to change its mind .... but first honour the valid vote given by the UK, and Leave ... then, if the UK is not happy with that .. have another referendum to confirm or deny the effects of the first referendum, once it is played out, at some time in the future.

Fried Egg Sandwich
Posts: 1066
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:17 pm
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Fried Egg Sandwich » Wed May 15, 2019 10:31 pm

garyboy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:40 pm

I am sorry that you feel that `democracy` is being shoved in your face, Andy ... and hope you are well and prospering ... and i agree that democracy has the right to change its mind .... but first honour the valid vote given by the UK, and Leave ... then, if the UK is not happy with that .. have another referendum to confirm or deny the effects of the first referendum, once it is played out, at some time in the future.
You totally miss the point about democracy and being allowed to change your mind.

Let's try another analogy...

You and four friends want to go to one of two restaurants to celebrate your birthday.

Restaurant A or Restaurant B

You put it to a democratic vote and Restaurant A wins 3 votes to 2. So you decide to eat at Restaurant A (even though you personally voted for Restaurant B, you respect the result)

However, after the votes are cast and the results are known you find out that Restaurant A ONLY serves human excrement, and Restaurant B actually serves decent food.

Should you all:
1. Have another vote now that you know the facts, and are then allowed to change your minds if you want to - about eating shit at Restaurant A
or
2. Go to Restaurant A anyway and eat shit, because that's what you originally voted for even though you now know the truth about Restaurant A.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work that one out.
2002 Suzuki DRZ400S

2002 BMW R1150GS



"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke Irish orator, philosopher, & politician (1729 - 1797)



Care about biking? MAG UK!

Care about rights of way? Trail Riders Fellowship!

scutty
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:27 pm
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 104 times

Re: EU. In or out?

Post by scutty » Wed May 15, 2019 11:10 pm

Ok, thanks for the classic set of Leave non-answers.

The reason you can't tell me which Leave plan you would like us to follow is because NONE of them had a plan, or a hint of a plan and they still don't. Do you know who doesn't need a plan? The person who wants to keep the status quo. Amazingly people voted for an unplanned, un-thought through idea, and shocker, it turns out to be really complex. Worst than that, 3 years later a whole load of people are about to do the same thing again and vote for a party that has no manifesto and no plan to achieve their 1 stated goal - Brexit. Do you know why they won't publish their plan? Because they don't want to talk about what they are going to do, they only want to blame others for not doing the thing nobody planned for in the first place.

So your idea for Northern Ireland is to kick them out of the Union and 'give' them to Ireland? A nation of 5 million people who are all British citizens, the majority of whom want to stay British (and in the EU), you would just strip them of their identity? Might as well hand back the Falklands and Gibraltar while we're at it? Screw the British citizens living there, who over wellmingly voted to stay British, as long as you get your Brexit right?

Its not simple and its not that we just haven't found the right people who can make it simple. Its fucking complex, it hasn't been thought through and planned at all and its just embarrassing now. The only thing you didnt mention is WTO Rules, no Brexit bingo full house for me.


Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


dubber68
Posts: 2450
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:07 pm
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Re: EU. In or out?

Post by dubber68 » Wed May 15, 2019 11:45 pm

What really puzzles me at the moment is how the pro-brexit tory MP's who insist on the need to "respect" the vote are at the same time plotting on over turning their own vote to keep the prime minister. Not quite sure but I suspect double standards are at play. It's almost like they've changed their minds and would like another vote.
I work to live. I live to ride. I ride to work, Ever felt like your going in circles.



Yamaha XT1200Z, Sertao, Herald 250, Xcountry & Vanvan





[IMG]http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj4 ... POINTS.jpg[/IMG

User avatar
garyboy
Posts: 2314
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:14 pm
Location: Pontypridd
Has thanked: 863 times
Been thanked: 349 times

Re: EU. In or out?

Post by garyboy » Thu May 16, 2019 2:11 am

Fried Egg Sandwich wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:31 pm
garyboy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:40 pm


However, after the votes are cast and the results are known you find out that Restaurant A ONLY serves human excrement, and

thankyou, fried egg sarny (great name) .. i will bear in mind this valuable shit advice when i dine out at an expensive fine dining restauraunt with my many many afluent and very loyal multiple friends.
Last edited by garyboy on Thu May 16, 2019 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
garyboy
Posts: 2314
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:14 pm
Location: Pontypridd
Has thanked: 863 times
Been thanked: 349 times

Re: EU. In or out?

Post by garyboy » Thu May 16, 2019 2:22 am

scutty wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:10 pm
Might as well hand back the Falklands and Gibraltar while we're at it? , ..
.. good suggestion !! .. I totally agree

qcnr
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:28 am
Has thanked: 252 times
Been thanked: 126 times

Re: EU. In or out?

Post by qcnr » Thu May 16, 2019 6:00 am

There simply are no advantages to leaving the EU.
I defy you to point out one factual advantage that the UK would have as a non member,
as opposed to being a member.

Post Reply

Return to “THE PUB”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests