euro and uk guided tours

[AustinW]

Jim, you embarrass me, but thanks and fully appreciated.

There's another person who deserves a mention for organising more than just a rideout but a whole weekend that is superbly planned, scheduled, communicated and executed: Craig/Largewayround's Highland rally. Another voluntary effort we should all be appreciative of. I am sure there's other organisers too so sorry but I havent been to your rally's.

I am also full of admiration for anyone who voluntarily organises and leads a foreign rideout. This is a whole new level of commitment and participants really should make a contribution in money, food, drink, petrol, or helping organise in the first place.

[davsato]

i do rideouts for my local cronies all the time, usually me doing it but its open to anyone who wants to lead, not many do though.
july's new forest rally was the first time ive done it for virtual strangers, which added to the stress but everyone seemed to enjoy it (even though it was damned hot that day!). i spent hours planning routes and figuring out a new GPS but i like doing all that.
i think getting paid for it would be a whole new level of stress, you would have to make sure everyone was happy. the way i see my rideouts is, "im going for a ride, you can come along if you like and if you dont, you can do one anytime you like" but if folks have paid for it, that allows them (rightly) expectations you have to live up to, know what i mean? that would take some of the shine off my ride.
would i do a foreign ride? sure, but as above, people have to remember its my holiday too, but if its a paid for tour then its work

[jackdaw]

while i`m sat on the beach counting the sand grains :laugh: :laugh: ..and nowt else better to do than think things through..well thats what you do on hols isnt it? :whistle:

How did you get to the beach? Find it yourself or follow someone else?
So as I see it we aint all getting younger and the average age of bikers is 40+ but yearn to travel but aint got a clue on whats to see..where to stay and where to ride..

I can't identify this group. They want to travel but have no knowledge of destinations? Put them on the M25 and let them go round a few times
you have the two camps..diy adventure take it as it comes ..and the "sheep" follow someone else..aka the shepard.

The later pay for this..yes? at what cost is variable..depending on trip type and duration..

This goes for both uk and Europe and worldwide..both road and trail..As knowledge of where to ride is down to the tour leader as he`s paid good money and time to discover the little jems be it internet research ..pouring over maps and gpx stuff..or plain old just get out and find out for him self B) ..

who would pay for such a thing...the ABR rallys/ mini meets have shown that a local knowledge of roads and trails is required for "ride out leaders"..but should we expext this to be freely given..or expext to pay ...

Are those on Rally ride-outs really sheep? After all they've found their way to the venue from far afield. I thought the idea of a ride-out was to maintain the camaraderie by all riding together. to achieve this needs organisation/a leader. Without a leader you could all go off in 2s and 3s and meet up at the end of the day.
If the ride out leaders stop offering there services then nothing happens or we dont ride anywhere..

What is the group leader's motivation. One assumes it's to do with sharing their local knowledge of interesting places and great roads, but who knows...?
There is a ever expanding group of riders who dont want to do extreme trails or long iron but riding..but find it hard to find riders to show them around and lead groups..

I personally am suprised how few riders want to lead groups but are happy to follow others and apart from saying thanks offer no money...Am I expecting too much? It seems to be the same old riders doing mini meets and ride outs be it road or trails, oraganinsing the campsites ..pub stop overs e

The idea of paying someone just so I can follow them around the countryside is totally alien to me. I like to ride alone (Billy no mates) or with my friends. (Sometimes one of them, sometimes both of them!) When I am alone I make my own decisions about where to go and where to stop. If I have a crap day it's down to me. No one else to blame. If I find somewhere fantastic then the credit is also all mine. I love planning trips, but this would be spoiled if I had to take into account the likes and dislikes of random riders in an organised group. If I want to make some money I wouldn't want to be asking my mates/ fellow rallyists for it.
I did try a day ride-out at an ABR rally. It was brilliantly organised and showed me bits of my own backyard that I didn't know about. Butt it's not my cup of tea, thanks all the same.

let the gloves fly ...

if we arent prepaired to all put something in we get nothing out..be it help,money or whatever we can give..why should we expect a local rider to give up their knowledge and get nothing in return..

right off of to real in that big "fish"..

[Mr Free Market]

Tramp, a very good question you have posed

Now I can only speak for myself but I'm happy to pay for a "service". For example, in a couple of weeks time I'm off the Pyrenees with Patsy Quick/Desert Rose Racing - 2 days hooning around in the mountains, throw my bike in the back of DRR truck, slap up lunch in Barcelona & catch a flight home. Perfect!

Now I fully appreciate that that format isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it works for me




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[Elle]

Some very good comments here

Can you put a price on an all-day ride out that you thoroughly enjoyed? £1 £5 £10? It seems so weird, but perhaps an organised event should have an "admission fee" even if it goes to charity (or in the leaders pocket).

Personally, if I tag along on a ride out, I like to make some sort of contribution in the form of petrol, coffee, lunch, or just a hug!

What I do think is important, is for the event to clearly advertise the expectations of riders. This could be the group riding rules or highlighting a spirited / advanced ride or one aimed at novices / slow riders.

The best trail rides I've been on are when the leader has explained what the forthcoming trails are going to be like - this is much appreciated as my head works overtime :woohoo: It may not always be appropriate / possible.
Special thanks to pinball1008, AustinW, JohnnyBoxer, MickDb1, Dazzer and Spanish_Biker for doing exactly that :cheer:

[MarkN]

An interesting thread.

Your original post Russ sort of sums up the human race, some are happy being leaders and some are happy being lead.

If I'm in my comfort zone, I don't mind leading a road ride, if I'm not on my own turf, I'm not that comfortable as I feel a lot of pressure not to let people go wrong etc.

It's really difficult leading a ride as people are never happy, the road is either, too straight, too twisty, too fast, too slow, too far, too short, too many stops, not enough stops etc etc.......... It's a fine balance of keeping most of the people happy most of the time.

As for paying someone to lead a ride becomes a cloudy area. If the person is being paid you suddenly become a professional guide, you then take on a "Duty of Care" and you take on the responsibility that comes with that. You will need to provide Risk Assessments, Dynamic Risk Assessments, you will have to carry Public Liability Cover, you will need different insurance as most policies don't cover "hire or reward". Then you will need to fill in Self Assessment form every year and file it with the Inland Revenue and all the hassles that come with that. You will also have to provide a second professional as part of your "Duty of Care", both of these people will need to be first responders etc.

Suddenly the price of a ride starts to look quite expensive.

Someone who thinks that they will charge people £5 a ride just to "cover my time" etc should take a long look at what they are doing, it only takes one accident and the crashed rider to say something like, "I paid you to lead me safely" for the mud to start flying.

In my IAM club, every time we go on a group ride, the ride leader reads out a disclaimer that says something like "it is you the rider that is deemed responsible for your vehicle and the way it is ridden and it is your responsibility to ride in a safe and controlled manner......"

Personally, if people are happy to follow me on a ride, then I'm happy to ride just in front of them!

[Tourider]

You're very right about "Duty of Care" but whether a payment is being made is not the governing factor, the fact that you are doing something means you have a "Duty of Care".
The waivers you mention have very little legal standing, they're there to make you think you can't sue if things go wrong. You can not, under British Law, sign away your right to sue if you are injured.
We've been through this with my club and the need to produce formal risk assessments to comply with the terms of our insurance, though not daunting in my opinion, has put a lot of people off organising anything.

[Tramp]

Thanks fellow riders ...

nice to know we are all still different and appreciate the efforts of others "giving" :laugh: by the recieved :S ...

Elle has a very good point regarding ride outs ..my view is you should spell it out from the start , where and how hard the terrain is..most times the groups are mixed ability and people make allowances..just give the "throttle jockeys" a play and they normally offer help and advice to slower ones that request it..

Unless riders state up front their ability we cant read minds..if knobblys are required please dont turn up on slicks..as you slow us down..and the laughter hurts watching you pick up your bike every 5 mins

Yes i`m sure most ride out leaders feel a duty of care to everyone following..but as long as everyone is aware of their own actions its normaly a great ride..

I think for me most stuff starts with .." I fancy riding here or there" but dont feel safe riding alone.[crash syndrome]..so invite others to tag along..you cant charge for this as its a invite..but if its a upfront cash job :cheer: ..then thats different..

I`m happiest in a small group when leading ..less stress [yep you know I like to throw my dummy ] but do like planning and researching..not everyone is capable of this ..computers and the internet are scary things..somethings simple only when you know how to do it :whistle: ..

we all have something to offer so dont be afraid to say what your good at :laugh: and being "billy no mates " is awfully boring and quite...riding alone is scary but very rewarding..two very different things..


So winters on its way ..get planning for spring ..or just enjoy the thrill of riding when we know its warmer in bed

any payment please to MY charity`s fund..all coinage recieved :woohoo: :woohoo:

[-Ralph-]

You're very right about "Duty of Care" but whether a payment is being made is not the governing factor, the fact that you are doing something means you have a "Duty of Care".
The waivers you mention have very little legal standing, they're there to make you think you can't sue if things go wrong. You can not, under British Law, sign away your right to sue if you are injured.
We've been through this with my club and the need to produce formal risk assessments to comply with the terms of our insurance, though not daunting in my opinion, has put a lot of people off organising anything.

I'd like to see a rider try and sue the leader any road ride-out because they crashed thier bike, non-paid, unofficial, or otherwise. You may not be able to sign away your right to sue, but that doesn't mean you have grounds to sue. You have to prove the crash was the liability of the leader and/or show negligence.

Riding behind somebody on the road thats going to be very difficult to prove if the leader of the group wasn't directly involved in the collision. Even in the most vulnerable situation with the highest duty of care, a training school taking out a learner rider, they are still not routinely sued when people crash.

Off-road it's a bit easier to prove because you can be led into situations that you can't be expected to handle (if you have a license you can be expected to handle any road), but even then you'd have to prove the leader was suitably qualified to assess your skill level and decide whether you were capable of doing it. You can't follow Bob off a forum into a ravine, hurt yourself getting out of the ravine, then expect to sue Bob.

Your club is doing risk assessments for insurance purposes, as the insurance company is covering you against a level if risk.

Even though the waiver form doesn't prevent you from taking court action, it will be used as evidence in court that you knew what you were getting into and took the decision to participate.




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[MarkN]

I'd like to see a rider try and sue the leader any road ride-out because they crashed thier bike, non-paid, unofficial, or otherwise. You may not be able to sign away your right to sue, but that doesn't mean you have grounds to sue. You have to prove the crash was the liability of the leader and/or show negligence.

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It's only a matter of time though before someone thinks, "I'll have a go".

Someone listens to the ride briefing given by the leader who says that the ride will be along a country lane etc and then during the ride it starts to rain, someone then comes off on a corner after slipping on some wet mud etc.
Said rider then says something along the lines of I wasn't told that there might be wet mud on the road by the leader etc.....
It might be obvious to most riders but to a rider that lives in a big city, it's not so obvious.

Personally, I hope that day never comes, but I'm sure it will.