Good Grief......

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simonw
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Re: Good Grief......

Post by simonw » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:53 pm

Seminole wrote:I think you have missed some sarcasm
Thereby amusingly illustrating the very point that we're both making - that good writing, in order to convey meaning, matters. (thumbs)

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gbags
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Re: Good Grief......

Post by gbags » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:34 pm

DavidS wrote:Or 'Eats shoots and leaves' by LynnTruss.

Not sure if I have actually got the spelling or punctuation right for the title but it is a brilliant book showing why it is so important.
The standard of written and spoken English is dreadful these days.
If It's so important and if written and spoken English is dreadful these days, why haven't you got the spelling or punctuation right?

Signed,
A. Pedant

Seminole
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Re: Good Grief......

Post by Seminole » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:40 am

simonw wrote:
Seminole wrote:I think you have missed some sarcasm
Thereby amusingly illustrating the very point that we're both making - that good writing, in order to convey meaning, matters. (thumbs)
I see it more as illustrating the need for adequate comprehension skills from the reader.

(I.E. I start a thread pointing out a grammar mistake then apparently exhibit the view that grammar was not important....bit of a clue eh?) :laugh:

I'm out now before someone takes it any more seriously

Happy trails

catcitrus
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Re: Good Grief......

Post by catcitrus » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:05 am

Bank you!
Poopaye :laugh:

Seminole
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Re: Good Grief......

Post by Seminole » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:21 am

Bank yu :whistle:

catcitrus
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Re: Good Grief......

Post by catcitrus » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:51 am

Bi-do

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Philiptigerrice
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Re: Good Grief......

Post by Philiptigerrice » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:41 pm

I come from a generation where Grammar and Punctuation were left out of the syllabus.
I literally couldn't tell you what a verb, adjective or past participle was then - and would struggle now to be honest. It was considered unnecessary at the time I suppose, unfashionable maybe in educational academia? I never even heard half of those words until I left school.
Now my children (8 and 10) come home talking about Homonyms, hyponyms, lexemes and split infinitives and other such oddities.
I don't think my lack of grammatical correctness has held me back at all. I do get a bit fed up of grammar Nazi's (no offence) sneering at me from time to time though (I appreciate that that isn't the intention of the OP here by the way). Trouble is - you can't learn about something if you don't know it's there.
I can remember my English Teacher, Mrs Bell, telling us how our grammar was poor, but it just wasn't on the syllabus. Lots of the teachers complained about it, just as they complained that there was hardly any exams and it was all crappy coursework and so on. We didn't seem to learn much at all.
My school was shite though. 2300 kids on campus, it was like battery farming for children. Most of my education involved not sitting too near the front of the class, so as to not get beaten up for being a SWOT. Equally, sitting too near the back could see you being set light to with a Flamethrower (Lynx Can and a lighter). Half the time, the classrooms were damp portacabins, but on the up side, there was some lovely views of the Hockey Pitches, and Alison Brown was magnificent on that left wing.
I left with 5 crap GCSE's and that was it. I'd also learned to take a punch, when to fight back, how to undo a bra, and which pubs would serve me. So, it wasn't totally wasted :whistle:
I was officially thick though, and the careers adviser (who was a spotty 23 year old who'd never held a proper job in his life) :silly: suggested I work in a Forest. WTF?!
A few years later, I discovered that lots of the people I looked up to where remarkably, MUCH thicker than I was and that most of them had been to University.
So, when I left the Army, (nobody else would give me a job AND let me shoot at stuff) I worked nights and went to college in the mornings, sleeping in the afternoons, then back out to work. I did an access to University Course, which essentially meant that since I'd muddled my way through early adult life, and not managed to break anything - if I could demonstrate an ability to use a library, learn to Harvard Reference and retain some of what was being said - they'd give me a bash....
So, I got into Huddersfield University and did a Dip HE.
Later I went to Hull University and did my BSc
And many years later, after a few promotions, I went to Salford to do a Masters Degree in Leadership and Management, which was halted by a cancer diagnosis, but I didn't mind - it was tedious.
Now I work in Industry, some of my management team are rough as bears arses and look like proper knuckle draggers. They aren't 'clever' but are utterly brilliant in other ways and importantly, I trust them to not get me killed. One of our engineers has a PhD, he;s a bright kid, but dyslexic - and his reports are terrible.... but they're never wrong.
Besides, they pay me more that I ever dared dream that I would earn.
So, as much as grammer is lovely - and I'm glad my kids are learning it - I tend not to judge people on their ability to right and talk propper England and stuff and that.
:laugh:
Innit.
Greater Manchester
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Seminole
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Re: Good Grief......

Post by Seminole » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:03 pm

You were lucky, when I were a Lad they used to stick yer ead down the crapper if you couldn't recite the 13 times table backwards :ohmy: and flush it :woohoo:

catcitrus
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Re: Good Grief......

Post by catcitrus » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:22 pm

I've been in Engineering all my life--and even lectured at BSc and MSc levels. Having to wade through loads of reports, exam mark and so on I must admit that if the grammar was bad, together with the spelling, punctuation and so on, it eventually detracted and distracted me from the technical aspects--and that isn't good. The bottom line is that if you want to get your point over then read it at least twice before posting/mailing/printing--or get someone else to proof read it. I'm sure that I'm not perfect --but do try and make it a flowing read without glaring errors--I hope!--tank-yu :lol:

daveuprite
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Re: Good Grief......

Post by daveuprite » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:27 pm

Philiptigerrice wrote:I come from a generation where Grammar and Punctuation were left out of the syllabus.

I literally couldn't tell you what a verb, adjective or past participle was then - and would struggle now to be honest. It was considered unnecessary at the time I suppose, unfashionable maybe in educational academia? I never even heard half of those words until I left school.

Now my children (8 and 10) come home talking about Homonyms, hyponyms, lexemes and split infinitives and other such oddities.

I don't think my lack of grammatical correctness has held me back at all. I do get a bit fed up of grammar Nazi's (no offence) sneering at me from time to time though (I appreciate that that isn't the intention of the OP here by the way). Trouble is - you can't learn about something if you don't know it's there.

I can remember my English Teacher, Mrs Bell, telling us how our grammar was poor, but it just wasn't on the syllabus. Lots of the teachers complained about it, just as they complained that there was hardly any exams and it was all crappy coursework and so on. We didn't seem to learn much at all.

My school was shite though. 2300 kids on campus, it was like battery farming for children. Most of my education involved not sitting too near the front of the class, so as to not get beaten up for being a SWOT. Equally, sitting too near the back could see you being set light to with a Flamethrower (Lynx Can and a lighter). Half the time, the classrooms were damp portacabins, but on the up side, there was some lovely views of the Hockey Pitches, and Alison Brown was magnificent on that left wing.

I left with 5 crap GCSE's and that was it. I'd also learned to take a punch, when to fight back, how to undo a bra, and which pubs would serve me. So, it wasn't totally wasted :whistle:



I was officially thick though, and the careers adviser (who was a spotty 23 year old who'd never held a proper job in his life) :silly: suggested I work in a Forest. WTF?!



A few years later, I discovered that lots of the people I looked up to where remarkably, MUCH thicker than I was and that most of them had been to University.

So, when I left the Army, (nobody else would give me a job AND let me shoot at stuff) I worked nights and went to college in the mornings, sleeping in the afternoons, then back out to work. I did an access to University Course, which essentially meant that since I'd muddled my way through early adult life, and not managed to break anything - if I could demonstrate an ability to use a library, learn to Harvard Reference and retain some of what was being said - they'd give me a bash....

So, I got into Huddersfield University and did a Dip HE.

Later I went to Hull University and did my BSc

And many years later, after a few promotions, I went to Salford to do a Masters Degree in Leadership and Management, which was halted by a cancer diagnosis, but I didn't mind - it was tedious.


Now I work in Industry, some of my management team are rough as bears arses and look like proper knuckle draggers. They aren't 'clever' but are utterly brilliant in other ways and importantly, I trust them to not get me killed. One of our engineers has a PhD, he;s a bright kid, but dyslexic - and his reports are terrible.... but they're never wrong.

Besides, they pay me more that I ever dared dream that I would earn.

So, as much as grammer is lovely - and I'm glad my kids are learning it - I tend not to judge people on their ability to right and talk propper England and stuff and that.

:laugh:

Innit.
Good post. Very interesting. I was also a late starter educationally. BA and Msc/Doctorate all largely done in my own time and at my own expense.

I take issue a bit with the argument that a poor schooling leaves you ill-equipped and more ignorant throughout your adult life, whether the subject is grammar or anything else. This is used as an excuse far too often. Education is an on-going process and if you want to learn something new or improve on skills that were inadequately taught at school then you can - anytime throughout your life. I did my degree and post-grad work just before the internet exploded into life, so I went the hard route of dusty libraries and research institutions. Nowadays anybody can find out almost anything with a few clicks of a mouse - learning has never been easier. Anything from a quick check of wikipedia to a 4 year PhD research project can be carried out largely on-line (lots of exceptions to the latter of course). Which is all the more reason why blaming a poor experience back at school for your lack of knowledge today is a lazy excuse. If you have a computer linked to the internet, you can only blame yourself for your ignorance and being unaware is more than ever a choice you make yourself, not something you should blame on others.

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