Britain looking to start the next chapter

[daveuprite]

I still believe a re-vote would be very close.

Yep, you could well be right there Flip. A lot of this is a question of psychology. It is VERY hard indeed to admit when you've made a boob. Personally I don't have a big issue with it. I think I've always been a fairly self-deprecating kind of person, happy to own up to errors and admit my many faults. (As an example from politics: I regret voting for Tony Blair in '97, given what transpired later, and I'm happy to admit that.)

But for many folk it's a very difficult thing to do. I have known and worked with many who just could not bring themselves to concede that they cocked up or misjudged or made a wrong call. They treat it as revealing a weakness; as a personal slight on themselves. And they will often come out attacking if they are accused of making a mistake. This forces the rest of us to either have constant confrontational fights with them or to tread on eggshells around them, stroking their egos for the sake of a quiet time. The U.S. thankfully just got rid of an extreme example a few weeks ago. The whole brexit issue is now steeped in this delicate psychology where you have a horrible mixture of people taking offence too quickly, victimhood, misplaced blame, lack of personal responsibility, and a poisonous social media and right-wing press making it all far worse.

[Richard Simpson Mark II]

I'm not sure this is quite correct. Overnight truck parking in Kent, near the tunnel and port has been a growing problem for a while, insofar as more and more trucks park in dodgy locations and leave crap when they leave. I don't think the complaint is specific to Brexiteers.

Kent voted enthusiastically for Brexit, and one factor was 'getting rid of the lorries'. In fact, Brexit has made the problem 100 times worse. The current restrictions prohibit drivers from taking their statutory 45-minute breaks in laybys...laybys are there for drivers to take breaks in.
Kent CC gains millions of £ a year from the ferry ports and tunnel...if parking facilities in Kent are inadequate for the traffic then it's their responsibility to provide them. Bear in mind that the situation 'over the water' with migrants is that it's impossible to stop within about 200 km of Calais unless you use a secure park...which the Calais municipality does provide.
The only sizeable facility around the ferry ports on our side is Ashford Truck Stop, and that is usually filled to capacity.
It's a legal requirement to stop for a rest or break after four-and-a-half hours of driving. So it should be a legal requirement for the local authority to provide parking spaces and proper facilities.

[Flipflop]

I still believe a re-vote would be very close.

Yep, you could well be right there Flip. A lot of this is a question of psychology. It is VERY hard indeed to admit when you've made a boob. Personally I don't have a big issue with it. I think I've always been a fairly self-deprecating kind of person, happy to own up to errors and admit my many faults. (As an example from politics: I regret voting for Tony Blair in '97, given what transpired later, and I'm happy to admit that.)

But for many folk it's a very difficult thing to do. I have known and worked with many who just could not bring themselves to concede that they cocked up or misjudged or made a wrong call. They treat it as revealing a weakness; as a personal slight on themselves. And they will often come out attacking if they are accused of making a mistake. This forces the rest of us to either have constant confrontational fights with them or to tread on eggshells around them, stroking their egos for the sake of a quiet time. The U.S. thankfully just got rid of an extreme example a few weeks ago. The whole brexit issue is now steeped in this delicate psychology where you have a horrible mixture of people taking offence too quickly, victimhood, misplaced blame, lack of personal responsibility, and a poisonous social media and right-wing press making it all far worse.

I agree with all that you say........but what is the reason behind the psychology? Why do people find it so hard to admit they’re wrong and even if they do can they change it?
Taking myself as my only source of knowledge (no one, not even the greatest psychologist, knows what anyone else is really thinking) I say “I don’t know” to the first and “no” to the second.

I don’t need to understand, no one does understand, but I can accept. Brexit then, for me, becomes a different beast.
I take it for what it is and adapt my life accordingly.

[daveuprite]

I agree with all that you say........but what is the reason behind the psychology? Why do people find it so hard to admit they’re wrong and even if they do can they change it?

Well I'm a bit of an existentialist in my thinking. I think we have the power to change ourselves far more than is often presupposed. I don't really like the idea of predetermination, or 'fate' as it's sometimes called. We are responsible for our actions and for their effects on others, and we should not shy away from them. Of course my atheism sits alongside that too. There is evidence all around us of people changing their mind, or taking a stand, or challenging preconceptions - and it very often has produced some of the most vitally important positive changes in our society. If traits were dominant and unalterable, in a kind of social darwinian way, nothing would ever have changed, there would never have have been any revolutions, any progress in the fields of culture and science etc. It's lazy and complacent to assume that nothing much can be changed in the world. The fact that bad things happen and often keep happening does not make them inevitable in future and does not make it impossible to change them.

That's the more philosophical side of it. The psychological aspect is harder, and it depends on how individuals react to difference as they encounter it. If we were somehow hardwired to behave in a set pattern of ways, we would not see the diversity of actions, opinions and views that we do. Sure of course, there is genetic predisposition - that's a well proven fact - but the vast number of examples of where we are able to break out of conformity, confront long-held prejudices, challenge norms and insist on the value of truth are testament to a far more creative human character than mere pre-programmed genetic code can account for. As ever, there is nature and there is nurture, and there is learned behaviour, and will to change etc..

Uh Oh, I might be about to disappear up my own arsehole. Time for a G&T I reckon. Meanwhile, best to end on a great quote from Douglas Adams, writing about his idea of the Babel Fish:

“Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”

[Jak*]

FB_IMG_1613407524394.jpg (67.23 KiB) Viewed 843 times

[Flipflop]

I agree with all that you say........but what is the reason behind the psychology? Why do people find it so hard to admit they’re wrong and even if they do can they change it?

Well I'm a bit of an existentialist in my thinking. I think we have the power to change ourselves far more than is often presupposed. I don't really like the idea of predetermination, or 'fate' as it's sometimes called. We are responsible for our actions and for their effects on others, and we should not shy away from them. Of course my atheism sits alongside that too. There is evidence all around us of people changing their mind, or taking a stand, or challenging preconceptions - and it very often has produced some of the most vitally important positive changes in our society. If traits were dominant and unalterable, in a kind of social darwinian way, nothing would ever have changed, there would never have have been any revolutions, any progress in the fields of culture and science etc. It's lazy and complacent to assume that nothing much can be changed in the world. The fact that bad things happen and often keep happening does not make them inevitable in future and does not make it impossible to change them.

That's the more philosophical side of it. The psychological aspect is harder, and it depends on how individuals react to difference as they encounter it. If we were somehow hardwired to behave in a set pattern of ways, we would not see the diversity of actions, opinions and views that we do. Sure of course, there is genetic predisposition - that's a well proven fact - but the vast number of examples of where we are able to break out of conformity, confront long-held prejudices, challenge norms and insist on the value of truth are testament to a far more creative human character than mere pre-programmed genetic code can account for. As ever, there is nature and there is nurture, and there is learned behaviour, and will to change etc..

Uh Oh, I might be about to disappear up my own arsehole. Maybe best to end on a great quote from Douglas Adams, writing about his idea of the Babel Fish:

“Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”

A nice post.
However we differ in our outlooks on this one - although I wish I believed in what you say.
The trouble is, I don’t believe things have changed or improved. Yes there has been lots of revolutions and people standing up for what they believe.............
But there is still slavery, there are still wars and famines - the gap between rich and poor is not getting better, possibly worse.

Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi, Mandela etc.. it’s a long list but none of them were able to change humanity, they just kicked the can down the road a bit (sorry if that seems flippant)

It all sounds a bit morbid but it’s/I’m not. I’ve seen a few people driven mad by trying to save the world. It’s just my way of being part of world where every single person is different - even identical twins.

[garyboy]

without wars and arguments, there is no progress.
progress comes from necessity.
people are `made` for fighting.
as is every living creature.

every creature has an identity.
this is founded on belief of environment and of self.

a `belief` is a deep held identity.
it cannot be changed without changing identity.
people can change.

but if challenged on their beliefs, they are challenged on their identity.
and will fight to protect that identity.

but will change some identity to survive,
when they see that their belief needs to change.


in a world of variables, a set future is inevitable.
the more variables, the more the future is set.
this is because numerousness dissipates the available change.
towards the obvious conclusion.


the human race is indeed hardwired to be confrontational, aggressive, and greedy when there is excess.
individuals who try for `peace` etc, are fighting the norm,
they are fighting progress
even though they see peace and cooperation as progress.

peace in our time?
we will never see it.

[dave h]

surely its all linked ,
the faster we get on top of the pandemic the better,
the bank of england predicts a return to groath after the first quarter of this year,
if we would have let the eu sort our vaccines out we would be in the mess they are in now,

https://www.euronews.com/2021/02/10/ban ... m=referral

dave.

We had the option to source our own vaccines; and exercised it when we were in the EU, as did the other members.

Some chose not to, we chose to.

Look at the growth predictions for small businesses and at the number of small businesses failing due to extra charges and admin costs. Yet today the biggest companies are experiencing increased turnover as they hoover up the little company shortfall.

And who bankrolled the Brexiteers? Oh yes, big company stakeholders.

(for avoidance of doubt Small Businesses on this context means every thing smaller than and including SME's.)

i was going to reply to this but bills post on the covid 19 thread does it better than my ham fisted political skills could

dave.

[simonw]

I'm not sure this is quite correct. Overnight truck parking in Kent, near the tunnel and port has been a growing problem for a while, insofar as more and more trucks park in dodgy locations and leave crap when they leave. I don't think the complaint is specific to Brexiteers.

Kent voted enthusiastically for Brexit, and one factor was 'getting rid of the lorries'. In fact, Brexit has made the problem 100 times worse. The current restrictions prohibit drivers from taking their statutory 45-minute breaks in laybys...laybys are there for drivers to take breaks in.
Kent CC gains millions of £ a year from the ferry ports and tunnel...if parking facilities in Kent are inadequate for the traffic then it's their responsibility to provide them. Bear in mind that the situation 'over the water' with migrants is that it's impossible to stop within about 200 km of Calais unless you use a secure park...which the Calais municipality does provide.
The only sizeable facility around the ferry ports on our side is Ashford Truck Stop, and that is usually filled to capacity.
It's a legal requirement to stop for a rest or break after four-and-a-half hours of driving. So it should be a legal requirement for the local authority to provide parking spaces and proper facilities.

Yes, but you said "The Brexiteers in Kent are excelling themselves now. Their response to the transport problems caused by Brexit is to ban all trucks from parking in Kent!" I don't think everyone in Kent voted for Brexit, nor do I think it's only people who voted for Brexit who are proposing to ban all parking (if that's indeed what is being proposed).

[daveuprite]

I agree with all that you say........but what is the reason behind the psychology? Why do people find it so hard to admit they’re wrong and even if they do can they change it?

Well I'm a bit of an existentialist in my thinking. I think we have the power to change ourselves far more than is often presupposed. I don't really like the idea of predetermination, or 'fate' as it's sometimes called. We are responsible for our actions and for their effects on others, and we should not shy away from them. Of course my atheism sits alongside that too. There is evidence all around us of people changing their mind, or taking a stand, or challenging preconceptions - and it very often has produced some of the most vitally important positive changes in our society. If traits were dominant and unalterable, in a kind of social darwinian way, nothing would ever have changed, there would never have have been any revolutions, any progress in the fields of culture and science etc. It's lazy and complacent to assume that nothing much can be changed in the world. The fact that bad things happen and often keep happening does not make them inevitable in future and does not make it impossible to change them.

That's the more philosophical side of it. The psychological aspect is harder, and it depends on how individuals react to difference as they encounter it. If we were somehow hardwired to behave in a set pattern of ways, we would not see the diversity of actions, opinions and views that we do. Sure of course, there is genetic predisposition - that's a well proven fact - but the vast number of examples of where we are able to break out of conformity, confront long-held prejudices, challenge norms and insist on the value of truth are testament to a far more creative human character than mere pre-programmed genetic code can account for. As ever, there is nature and there is nurture, and there is learned behaviour, and will to change etc..

Uh Oh, I might be about to disappear up my own arsehole. Maybe best to end on a great quote from Douglas Adams, writing about his idea of the Babel Fish:

“Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”

A nice post.
However we differ in our outlooks on this one - although I wish I believed in what you say.
The trouble is, I don’t believe things have changed or improved. Yes there has been lots of revolutions and people standing up for what they believe.............
But there is still slavery, there are still wars and famines - the gap between rich and poor is not getting better, possibly worse.

Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi, Mandela etc.. it’s a long list but none of them were able to change humanity, they just kicked the can down the road a bit (sorry if that seems flippant)

It all sounds a bit morbid but it’s/I’m not. I’ve seen a few people driven mad by trying to save the world. It’s just my way of being part of world where every single person is different - even identical twins.

That's a very fair point of view. I can see exactly where you're coming from. It certainly can seem that the enlightenment / age of reason 'project' has failed, or is in the process of failing.

What I won't give up on is the ability to change, even if the change is not actually happening. We have demonstrated as a society that we can improve and progress IF we want to and IF we choose to. The demonstrable failures, for instance as you say in the case of things like famine and war, do not make further examples inevitable. Likely, perhaps, but not inevitable.

At the end of the day, it is not mad max out there. That's the destination when people give up on the idea of sound leadership and institutions designed to encourage cooperation. I prefer to see it as a kind of wavelength graph rather than a constantly descending or ascending line. We seem to be in a dip of cultural development right now, what with covid, brexit, trumpism and climate change, but that doesn't mean there are no peaks ahead. It's the last of those four that threatens it most by far...