Covid 19 Coronavirus

[daveuprite]

Loads of discussion here in France right now about whether France should lock down again, or whether its neighbouring states should quarantine those returning from French visits, including this Guardian article today:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ntine-list

Personally I think it's just a matter of time, probably with a reciprocal quarantine requirement a bit later on when the UK spikes again! Everyone opened up too early and too extensively. I'm seeing lots of UK registered cars round here at the moment, as you'd expect in August, but I guess they are all ready to dash back to the channel ports if the UK FO issues a quarantine order.

[daveuprite]

Here's the next problem, although not entirely unexpected. Scientific literacy is very low right now, and it sometimes manifests as a rejection of vaccination. As the article points out, there's a correlation between those who refuse to wear masks / socially distance and anti-vax sentiment.

The only long-term way out of the covid crisis is to achieve global herd immunity via mass vaccination, which is impossible with 50% refusing to cooperate. So yet again, the human race becomes its own worst enemy, and sensible progressive action to help us all is scuppered by superstition and ignorance. One despairs...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... accination

[Asgard]

I remain very sceptical about getting an effective vaccine, so far the updates we get about trials and breakthroughs in the UK read to me more like a competition between Universities to see who gets to the next stage first...mucho hype that I fully expect will be followed by at best mediocre performance, which pretty much sums up how most things are are done these days

P.S. The Russkies say they have a vaccine ready https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53735718

[Andi_Archer]

Also note at least one of the companies involved have been given protection from prosecution should any vaccine produced have adverse side effects.

[Asgard]

Regarding Herd immunity Dave, observations in the UK lead me to believe herd immunity in the young and fit is fast approaching without a vaccine.
The old and infirm well they will either have to lock themselves away or suffer the consequences, the young over here honestly don't give a fuck and I read that its a similar situation in France Spain and Italy, probably the same the world over

[daveuprite]

Regarding Herd immunity Dave, observations in the UK lead me to believe herd immunity in the young and fit is fast approaching without a vaccine.
The old and infirm well they will either have to lock themselves away or suffer the consequences, the young over here honestly don't give a fuck and I read that its a similar situation in France Spain and Italy, probably the same the world over

I don't see it like that. The herd means all of us, regardless of age. You can't have a 'young herd' and an 'old herd' while all the generations mix together - as they do. It's very important to young people that everyone becomes immune (most probably via a vaccine IF/WHEN it comes along, and IF the vast majority of people all take it). And its vital to older people that the younger generations become immune too. This separation of generations is just rather poorly thought out banter to encourage a culture war - which is stoked up by social media commentators etc. - and very unhelpful right now.

Personally I think the younger age groups have the most to lose from the Coronavirus pandemic. Most obviously , they have longer to suffer its consequences than older folk. They have lost large chunks of education and training, and millions of potential careers have been thwarted or disrupted. Other millions face long-term unemployment accompanied by even worse under-investment in the welfare state than there was before. Prospects for a 16 year old right now are not good at all.

And also consider the social impact. I remember the days when to spend just one Saturday night indoors rather than out with my mates was basically a tragedy and risked social oblivion. Young people have had to endure a separation from their mates that affects them a great deal at a time in their lives when mingling, mixing, shacking up and shagging are vital to their well-being and development. A lot of older people for some reason forget that, or choose to forget it, possibly because they are no longer keen on doing that kind of stuff themselves so much these days. It's worth trying to recall what you got up to when you were 16 - 25 and then imagine being deprived of most of it for months on end.

Which doesn't excuse all the partying and the collapse of social distancing amongst some (by no means all) young people - this is still a virus and everyone must play their part - but we should all try to appreciate the sacrifices that have been made across all the generations.

[Asgard]

It is human nature for the young especially teenagers to be selfish but there is currently a surfeit of such behaviour and now is not the time to let it go unchallenged.

Youngsters need guidance as much as they desire freedom, decades of too much concentration on giving them the latter is probably why we have such a selfish society today

[daveuprite]

It is human nature for the young especially teenagers to be selfish but there is currently a surfeit of such behaviour and now is not the time to let it go unchallenged.

Youngsters need guidance as much as they desire freedom, decades of too much concentration on giving them the latter is probably why we have such a selfish society today

Is it 'human nature' to be selfish? I would say it's a strong characteristic of humanity that we socialise, that we co-operate, that we collaborate, that we share and suffer together, and that we attempt (often unsuccessfully) to bring about equality and empathy. It is a choice to take a different, selfish, path - not an inevitability. I know it's an existentialist thing to say, but we have 'agency'. Our paths are not predetermined, and we have choices to live our lives harmoniously rather than antagonistically. The fact that we very often choose the selfish path is a choice, not an inbuilt ineluctible certainty. Just look at the reaction of people in Beirut to last week's explosion. Betrayed by their government and by the corrupt fiefdoms that hold sway in Lebanon, they still today work together as a strong bonded human entity to clear the streets, repair the damage and offer shelter to the newly homeless and hungry. A species defined inevitably by selfish, dog-eat-dog, survivalism would not act like that.

The current strain of selfishness is not an age-defined thing. It's too simplistic to label the young selfish or the older generation altruistic. Indeed it could be argued that it is the baby boomer generation in the UK that has done relatively well for itself in recent years and has pulled up the drawbridge to protect itself, leaving millennials and others rather high and dry - sometimes with no access to the housing market whatsoever, often doomed to rent in poor accommodation forever, and now furthermore denied some of their freedoms by Brexit. But those are generalisations and not necessarily useful. Selfishness is latently present at all times, but it takes individualism in government policy and erosion of social systems to nurture and nourish it. That's the petri dish we are all growing in now, young and old.

Interesting discussion...

[Tonibe63]

I don't believe anybody is born selfish but they can become that way from poor parenting, social circumstances and life experiences. The same applies to many criticisms leveled against the young.

[simonw]

I think often selfishness is unintentional but derived as a by-product from an inability to see the bigger picture. This inability seems to either be on the rise, or else I'm more sensitive to it. "We" seem increasingly to deal with very specific individual issues without looking at the larger picture. A (silly, perhaps) example is the lowering of speed limits on certain roads. Instead of addressing the root cause of traffic incidents (change people's thinking and train them better) we myopically lower the limit, whack up some shiny new signs and loving paint big numbers on the road. Which is great until the next hoo-ha stretch of road when guess what, we do the same thing again.