Manchester arena bomb

[ollydog]

that is the problem manpower, so they have to risk assess and unfortunately they get it wrong now and then, on the point of us pushing our western views, i like to think we have moved on a bit in the last 100 years
steve

[-Ralph-]

I have just found out my niece's best friend didn't make it out of Manchester alive.

I have just spoken to a mate who's daughter is still on the missing list.

The good people of Manchester who acted brilliantly in a myriad of ways from first responders to the guys handing free pizza's out will all be getting a glass raised to them tonight.

My god. Doesn't bear thinking about. Thoughts and condolences.

[-Ralph-]

I was listening to Radio 4 on the way home the other night and they were talking to someone about putting surveillance on all of the known radicals on watch lists: there are currently around 1,000 people on these lists...

So, in order to cover every last one of them, they would need around-the-clock surveillance, which would be three shifts of two men per day so, 6 men multiplied by 1,000 "suspected terrorists" equates to 6,000 extra police to cover all of that surveillance alone. Factor in holidays, illness, maternity leave, etc. and you could add another load. Not only that but you'll also have to monitor their phones, computers and any other form of communication to ensure that you catch every conversation that they are having.

Now ask yourselves how is all this going to be paid for? Don't we already pay too much for Council Tax, Income Tax, Road Tax, etc? Going on the above figures (just for the surveillance), if you pay each office £30k a year, you are adding £180,000,000 to the budget just to watch some people who might try to attack our country. No government is going to propose that kind of expenditure (regardless of an election), even if they could get the 6,000+ new recruits and train them up (at more cost).

Then you have those that slip through the net; those who aren't on any watch list or who aren't known to the authorities. How do you counter them?

It's not a nice situation that we find ourselves in... but it does seem to be the way we are going and it is in no small part down to what we (as countries in the Western World) have done in the past. We have tried to push our ideologies upon other people for way too long.

I don't have any answers for the problems we face but I do know that demonising certain groups of people is not the way to do it.

If you pass laws that allow you to prosecute and lock up those on the watch lists, and there must be some evidence they are a risk or they wouldn't be on the watch list, the you wouldn't need 24/7 surveillance on all their phone calls.

I don't think anyone is talking about demonising anyone anyway, only those who we have proof are extremists.

Look at Anjem Choudary, runs Al-Muhajiroun in the UK for 30+ years (since long before we invaded Iraq!), referred to the 9/11 terrorists "magnificent martyrs" in 2001, in 2007 he branded the Muslim Council of Britain for "selling their souls to the devil" because they condemned the 7/7 attacks in London. Yet it took us until 2015 to arrest the guy and charge him with terrorism offences.

I don't care what anyone says, nobody can tell me letting that guy run Al-Muhajiroun as a free man for over 30 years, to publicly preach hate all over the UK, was the right thing for UK authorities to do. They were too scared of the controversy and being branded racist, and too liberal with all the "he hasn't done anything wrong yet" shite, to actually do something about him.

[Chunkychops]

At the very least, these arseh*les of satan should not be given any sort of burial. Cremate the w*nkers and flush the remains down a sewer where they belong. At least they'll know where they will end up before they die.

[Redmurty]

I was listening to Radio 4 on the way home the other night and they were talking to someone about putting surveillance on all of the known radicals on watch lists: there are currently around 1,000 people on these lists...

So, in order to cover every last one of them, they would need around-the-clock surveillance, which would be three shifts of two men per day so, 6 men multiplied by 1,000 "suspected terrorists" equates to 6,000 extra police to cover all of that surveillance alone. Factor in holidays, illness, maternity leave, etc. and you could add another load. Not only that but you'll also have to monitor their phones, computers and any other form of communication to ensure that you catch every conversation that they are having.

Now ask yourselves how is all this going to be paid for? Don't we already pay too much for Council Tax, Income Tax, Road Tax, etc? Going on the above figures (just for the surveillance), if you pay each office £30k a year, you are adding £180,000,000 to the budget just to watch some people who might try to attack our country. No government is going to propose that kind of expenditure (regardless of an election), even if they could get the 6,000+ new recruits and train them up (at more cost).

Then you have those that slip through the net; those who aren't on any watch list or who aren't known to the authorities. How do you counter them?

It's not a nice situation that we find ourselves in... but it does seem to be the way we are going and it is in no small part down to what we (as countries in the Western World) have done in the past. We have tried to push our ideologies upon other people for way too long.

I don't have any answers for the problems we face but I do know that demonising certain groups of people is not the way to do it.

If you pass laws that allow you to prosecute and lock up those on the watch lists, and there must be some evidence they are a risk or they wouldn't be on the watch list, the you wouldn't need 24/7 surveillance on all their phone calls.

I don't think anyone is talking about demonising anyone anyway, only those who we have proof are extremists.

Look at Anjem Choudary, runs Al-Muhajiroun in the UK for 30+ years (since long before we invaded Iraq!), referred to the 9/11 terrorists "magnificent martyrs" in 2001, in 2007 he branded the Muslim Council of Britain for "selling their souls to the devil" because they condemned the 7/7 attacks in London. Yet it took us until 2015 to arrest the guy and charge him with terrorism offences.

I don't care what anyone says, nobody can tell me letting that guy run Al-Muhajiroun as a free man for over 30 years, to publicly preach hate all over the UK, was the right thing for UK authorities to do. They were too scared of the controversy and being branded racist, and too liberal with all the "he hasn't done anything wrong yet" shite, to actually do something about him.

I think it's called "freedom of speech" Ralph :whistle:

cheers Spud

[Redmurty]

I read a while back that most explosive have an ingredient made from pig in them so at the time of atomising themselves they are surrounding themselves with "pork" not sure how that works with regards to getting in paradise :whistle:
cheers Spud

[-Ralph-]

I was listening to Radio 4 on the way home the other night and they were talking to someone about putting surveillance on all of the known radicals on watch lists: there are currently around 1,000 people on these lists...

So, in order to cover every last one of them, they would need around-the-clock surveillance, which would be three shifts of two men per day so, 6 men multiplied by 1,000 "suspected terrorists" equates to 6,000 extra police to cover all of that surveillance alone. Factor in holidays, illness, maternity leave, etc. and you could add another load. Not only that but you'll also have to monitor their phones, computers and any other form of communication to ensure that you catch every conversation that they are having.

Now ask yourselves how is all this going to be paid for? Don't we already pay too much for Council Tax, Income Tax, Road Tax, etc? Going on the above figures (just for the surveillance), if you pay each office £30k a year, you are adding £180,000,000 to the budget just to watch some people who might try to attack our country. No government is going to propose that kind of expenditure (regardless of an election), even if they could get the 6,000+ new recruits and train them up (at more cost).

Then you have those that slip through the net; those who aren't on any watch list or who aren't known to the authorities. How do you counter them?

It's not a nice situation that we find ourselves in... but it does seem to be the way we are going and it is in no small part down to what we (as countries in the Western World) have done in the past. We have tried to push our ideologies upon other people for way too long.

I don't have any answers for the problems we face but I do know that demonising certain groups of people is not the way to do it.

If you pass laws that allow you to prosecute and lock up those on the watch lists, and there must be some evidence they are a risk or they wouldn't be on the watch list, the you wouldn't need 24/7 surveillance on all their phone calls.

I don't think anyone is talking about demonising anyone anyway, only those who we have proof are extremists.

Look at Anjem Choudary, runs Al-Muhajiroun in the UK for 30+ years (since long before we invaded Iraq!), referred to the 9/11 terrorists "magnificent martyrs" in 2001, in 2007 he branded the Muslim Council of Britain for "selling their souls to the devil" because they condemned the 7/7 attacks in London. Yet it took us until 2015 to arrest the guy and charge him with terrorism offences.

I don't care what anyone says, nobody can tell me letting that guy run Al-Muhajiroun as a free man for over 30 years, to publicly preach hate all over the UK, was the right thing for UK authorities to do. They were too scared of the controversy and being branded racist, and too liberal with all the "he hasn't done anything wrong yet" shite, to actually do something about him.

I think it's called "freedom of speech" Ralph :whistle:

cheers Spud

It's called inciting racial hatred or inviting support for terrorism, both of which are criminal offences in this country and the latter he was convicted of when things got bad enough someone finally decided they had to strap on a pair of balls or face public criticism. Until that point nothing was done.

[Mike54]

that is the problem manpower, so they have to risk assess and unfortunately they get it wrong now and then, on the point of us pushing our western views, i like to think we have moved on a bit in the last 100 years

steve

Oh yeah? How's that? We've been pushing western democracy on the east for the past few hundred years and we continue to do so. Absolutely nothing has changed, apart from the weaponry.

[Mac 60]

I wish some people on here would wake up and look at this using real facts and not through the eyes of anger and hate!

Let men first say that what happened is disgusting and I hate all such things..I am no supporter of the Islamic nutters.

But how does this compare to the wedding in Afghanistan where some 20 kids were killed by a US dropped bomb?...it wasn't on the TV much so we have forgotten about it. Or the air raid Baghdad where dozens of kids weren killed by a US dropped bomb...gone for our minds I bet.

Do you gents not understand history or read the real facts here? There is one solution to this and that is to get out of the Arab states and let them kill each other..men..women and children.

We in the west have had democracy for 1000 years or so and have had our wars no massacres but the Arab nations are about 100 years old and they have not had this. The cause of this and all the bombs is the west trying to force its values of people who are simply not ready to live like that.

There is nothing that Isis have, are or will do that the Catholic Church has not done in the past few hundred years.

Come attack me all you like but the above is them simple honest truth based on facts not anger.

Mike

And yet Mike when Martin McGuinness died you started a thread berating him and the IRA for their actions over the past forty years. Now as a Veteran ive no love for the IRA but i dont understand how you can class one terrorist group different from another. You give us reasons for Islamic terrorism yet you had none for the Republican movement. You even had the title of the thread Gerry McNasty. I knew you meant Martin McGuinness and not Gerry Adams as he is still very much alive but i dident think it worth the bother to correct you at the time even though you claimed to have seen some terrible things in N Ireland while working along side the security forces. Odd then you would mix up the two men you claimed to hate and were glad to hear of ones death. Ive come to the conclusion Mike that you are full of it.

[WIBO]

On a slightly different angle if you please?.....
My take.....
......of course there'll be anger etc when an atrocity occurs....but if you parallel it more calmly with those other fuckwit terrorists that live within your borders.....the IRA....
It took a long time to defeat them to such a degree that they had to then move into politics when they realised they just not could push their agenda with normal civil people ...( lets face it,who lives in Europe and has to tell every one else they're a 'Freedom Fighter'?....Iran or Iraq under a dictator etc ..yes?....but in Europe?.... ) ....the good work of MI5/6, Army 14 Int, the British Army and RUC George Cross, Special Branch prevailed no matter how much their propaganda machine tried to turn around....to such a degree,over time that they were defeated.
All this to say......
If you can bet bothered to search...as Mike54 has mentioned with work like this, there's been so many attacks, in this instance, on police personnel in Ulster that has been thwarted over the last few years (after 'peace' was declared ) due to the same good work.....but most unfortunaltely, there has been a few that have slipped through due to the terrorists own tight control of their own network.
Read..tight control over their own network....therefore..erm...difficult to crack.
As an aside ....if you look back, how many of the suits in Whitehall thought it would be OK to bang the likes of Adams and McGuinness up for being known fuckwits in todays climate of things? ( ...if it were to prevail, then Adams et al would be scooped tomorrow too based on what the suits know ....and even normal citizens!!)
Bear with me.....but not that complex...
I think we're in for the long haul as with the IRA fuckwits, but at least the departments that deal with this kind of thing are more clued in than those that have never experienced these kinds of attacks......read the police murdered in Paris before the elections ....they now will have to adapt their patrolling patterns to reflect, but it took lives lost to do so.....it was always easy to have had that covered IMO by looking at how other police worked under threat e.g. the likes of Indian police forces (et al) have visited Ulster to see how the RUC patrol under threat.... )
Ultimately, I'd say hats off to the sterling service to date for the unseen work.....
.......you can only pull so much blood out of a stone with what you have to work with, and I know for a fact, based on the aforementioned, the unseen heroes are indeed trying their hardest....they really are,as I would and no doubt other riders on here.
.