Who earns 80 grand?

[Simon_100]

The vast majority of the young people I teach come from economically deprived backgrounds, many have learning needs, the vast majority have suffered abuse either emotional, physical, sexual or neglect. The case histories that I read leave me close to tears particularly when you know the children involved, on some home visits I have nearly thrown up,due to the conditions these children live in. To say that these children have an equal life chance is just not true

Absolutely correct, but it's attitude and education that created that environment, not money.

Having that attitude and education can only lead to economic depravity, so it's a vicious circle. A person who lives by those values will never be rich. So that environment and economic depravity go hand in hand.

But economic depravity does not generate the poor attitude and education, you can be the poorest man in the world and still teach your kids not to inflict emotional, physical, sexual
abuse or neglect.

Respect, right from wrong, those things are about who you are, not what you have.

Hi Ralph, et al, I was about to pick you up on "economic depravity" as I think you mean 'economic deprivation'. But after a thought maybe you're on to something! (thumbs)

BTW best topic here in, er, ages ...

Regs

Simon

[-Ralph-]

hahaha!

[Jak*]

Totally agree Ralph, it is not entirely about money. However one of the theories which impacts on my work is 'Maslow's Hierachy of Needs'. At the bottom of the pyramid are food,water,warmth,rest, followed by security and safety. Put simply if a child is hungry or frightened it is very difficult for them to learn. Whilst there are children who grow up in poverty whose parents manage to feed them well and keep them safe, if they are poor they are more likely to be hungry or frightened.
This applies to many of the students we teach.For instance one student I taught hadn't been in school for two years because he wanted to stay at home to protect his mum from her pimp and clients, he was thirteen. On a home visit to another student I went into a house which had absolutely no internal doors, there were three adults and five children living in this property. I do understand that there are a (very) few children who somehow find some kind of inner strength to rise above this kind of upbringing but the odds are really stacked against them. When I grew up the kids who were a few years older than me had jobs, in many cases proper apprenticeships, therefore they could afford bikes or cars at that was what I aspired to. For many of my students their older siblings and mates are drug dealers and that is where they see their future. As I said it is a different country.
Cheers Jak

[Philiptigerrice]

Are they still teaching Maslows? :pinch:

Blimey!

He was a funny one Maslow, very one dimensional, he liked lists, never really studied or proved any of his theory, (it just seemed to make sense at the time) and nobody ever reached the peak of the pyramid.

Nobody ever self actualised - did they?

He doesn't take into account people caring for family or colleagues, its a very middle class american view of the world - and these days, if you gave most youngsters the choice, they'd take WiFi, an iPhone and a car over achieving the Nirvana of Maslows Self Actualisation.


Not that that makes it wrong - or devalues it - it is still a valid view - and Jaks comments about poverty are very true.

But - it doesn't explain to me (as a lapsed Labour Supporter) how taxing everyone to pieces, slowing down any will to grow or desire to generate wealth for yourself and others, can help the families Jak describes.

Earning £80 grand - and being taxed a lot more, isn't going to help these kids.

Means tested free school dinners might - IF they are in school... Maybe it would attract some back to school, maybe it wouldn't.

There's been all sorts of experiments where people got free vouchers for baby food, baby prams, free healthcare, free dental care, free education, drugs programs, Surestart programmes, community centres, all sorts - and all it did was cause a greater reliance on hand outs and the state. It actively teaches people that to get the bottom half of Maslows pyramid ticked off - you don't need to do anything.

So, whats the answer? I certainly don't know...

But I don't think that slowing down businesses or nationalizing everything will help.

[Jak*]

You may well be right Phillip but doing the opposite, which is effectively what has happened since 1979 and particularly in the last seven years, has definitely made things worse. The Conservative manifesto says that it rejects the 'cult of the selfish individual' yet that is what their policies have helped promote.
Whilst I would not go as far as nationalising all industry having privately owned public services does not work in this country. A prime example is the bus services. I was listening to Farming today and they interviewed a number of pensioners from rural communities who rely on a charity mini bus for contact with the outside world as their local bus service has had such drastic cuts. Sometimes at work families arrive for meetings in taxis, as someone who cannot remember ever getting a taxi in their childhood I thought this was a needless extravagance until I looked at the cost of bus tickets. Private companies exist to make profits for their shareholders and that is often not compatible with providing genuine public service.
My real fear in this election is that if the conservatives get in again our public services will be damaged to the point of no return. Most of them are on the brink already. The rich can avoid using these services to some extent, they can have private health care, send their kids to private schools, fit extra alarms on their property, move to 'nicer areas', pay for high quality care for elderly relatives, drive massive designer four by fours over the pot holes, or live in the Ritz if they choose. Those who earn significantly less than eighty grand don't have those options.
I guess that somewhere in the middle there is a balance but we have gone way too far in the wrong direction in my opinion.
Cheers Jak

[Philiptigerrice]

I don't disagree mate - I just don't see how slowing the economy down by taxing it to death will help.
Privatised Companies do make a profit - they must - and that takes some 'value' out of the money you have spent with them.
But a lot of those companies do really good jobs - and take out less value than the Government did when it ran them, because the government don't do anything efficiently.
Then you have the issue of the industries being so unionised that they grind to a halt.
Not compatible with running public services!
So for me - running private, is a slightly lesser evil.
But, again - there are whole swathes of society that believe, because they are told, again and again, that doing things privately is bad, because making money is bad - and any company that makes a profit, providing services, is run by fat cat bastards, and are rich nasty Tory scumbags!
Public Transport is a funny one - we have a local bus service that is more expensive than a taxi if there's more than two of us using it.
But - the bus only exists because it has too - it runs because there are pensioners using their bus passes and school kids, who are on really heavily subsidised passes. So the bus company is making no money. But they have to run the service. And not just any service - that bus has to lower and raise itself, have wheelchair ramps, have CCTV fitted, front back and inside and out, it has to meet Euro4 standards, and pay for diesel, and the wage of a driver, and his pension, his taxes and his NI, and the cost of the bus itself....
So again, whats the answer? Make the tax payer pay for it?
Everyone wants everything for free!
What interests me about your point of view, is that it is loaded with phraseology:
Live in the Ritz...
Designer 4x4's...
My perception of your viewpoint, is a view of anyone who earns any decent money, being selfish, fat cats, who should be brought down almost...
I'm seeing that idea running through a lot of peoples posts... a bitterness (for want of a better word) and almost a rising up of Poor Versus Rich.
But then I'd say - stop a minute... and look around.
Most people in this country ARE rich - they have a home, are not starving, they have access to free education and healthcare if they choose to do so - much of which is the envy of the world. There ARE opportunities to get out and better yourself, run a business, get up the ladder.
Some people are less well off than other people, but rather than look to see how the £80 grand club got there - and give people the opportunity to applaud that and importantly, replicate it - we say Fuck 'Em!
Rich scumbags - its their fault I'm skint! Lets bring em down!
Its like we're saying that the guy who runs BP, and earns £3m a year, is responsible for the burned out car at the back of the estate. The fact that he employs tens of thousands of people, generates billions in income for staff and government, fuels our cars and homes, and whose stock is the back bone of many many pension funds... he's a shit bag.
And the guy driving the new range rover - well he must be a shit bag too?
The Torys need to soften up - absolutely.
But (Millionaire public schoolboy) Jezza Corbyn wants everyone to believe that everyone should be equal - everyone should earn the same £10 an hour, everyone should pay for everything and nothing.....
But he;s going to run out of everyone else money, really quickly.

[Redmurty]

Jaks you talk about kids not choosing jobs but choosing to deal in drugs, you obviously do not remember or possibly wasn't around in the 60's.
I used to be paid a penny for every "pill" I found of my brothers stash, I well remember smuggling stuff in his borstal.
Northern soul nights drugs were every where, I lost my first mate to an OD at 14, saw plenty more in hospital and youth offending schemes, that was their choice I chose to do other things so did many of the kids on the estate I was dragged up on. I saw plenty of kids end up with decent jobs and I also saw mates (3) arrested for murder and also lost a mate who was murdered.
What made the difference choice some of us chose to do something about the shite we were in, some chose to pick up social and mocked the rest of us who were struggling with no food on the table the day before pay day.
In my family we knew when our mom had pawned my days best suit usually on a Wednesday because we had food that day (thumbs) that suit had to be back by sunday when dad went to church :whistle:
I am well aware that some will never be able to be drag themselves out of the shit pile and they are the ones that need help, but I am a firm believer that you have to take responsibility for your own journey.
I would love to meet the teacher who wrote on my records that "I was the child most likely never to succeed at anything" perhaps that reflected more on his teaching than my abilities or what Maslon and the teaching at the time were doing to prepare us for the world.
I remember at junior school the school board man turning up at my house, he was talking to my parents when I walked in from "work" to be fair to him he had the decency to explain to me that my parents were about to be prosecuted for my none attendance at school, I told my parents not to worry as I would pay the fine, he asked how I was going to do that I replied "work" He asked me if I had ever been in trouble with the police I said no as that would stop me earning, at which point he got up left the house never to return and my parents were never prosecuted.
The guy who is putting my bike back together is dyslexic he is 61 and was always thrown to the back of the class because he was thick and as he said "put a tool in my hands and I'll fix anything" his work is stunning
It's not always about being hungry which sometimes can be a catalyst for far greater things. Sometimes it's just about being sheer bloody minded and refusing to take no for an answer and making a decision to get off your arse. of course the odd mentor along the way can make a lot of difference so can a bad teacher in both a good and bad way.
Just had a trip to Moroc and saw plenty of people with very little yet they managed to be polite outward looking, honest and friendly and I never heard anyone say the world owed them a living
Cheers Spud

[Redmurty]

A great thread, thoughtful and for me, thought provoking.

and re your whatsapp message about your meeting with ZAK, now you know why :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

cheers Spud

[Redmurty]

just heard a quote.....
"if we are carried all our lives, we soon forget how to walk"
Cheers Spud

[Dazzer]

Reading between the lines…Those that earn the most have the least free time for themselves or family
Glad I'm poor and can do as I wish everyday (thumbs)