Tramp wrote:I for one would happily accept the so called economic migrants in place for sending the lazy,sponging uk layabouts to the migrants countries in exchange...so thats most public sector workers
Bin men? (my trade)
Police?
Nurses?
Teachers?
Environmental health officers?
Just so I know which of us you are proposing to relocate?
I'm a retired teacher.
Please locate me to the south of France. Provence would do nicely. Not too far from a supermarket and a vineyard.
Let me know when to start packing.
Tramp wrote:I for one would happily accept the so called economic migrants in place for sending the lazy,sponging uk layabouts to the migrants countries in exchange...so thats most public sector workers
Bin men? (my trade)
Police?
Nurses?
Teachers?
Environmental health officers?
Just so I know which of us you are proposing to relocate?
I'm a retired teacher.
Please locate me to the south of France. Provence would do nicely. Not too far from a supermarket and a vineyard.
Let me know when to start packing.
Come and see me when you start house hunting Alan and I'll give you a dozen reasons why it's better to be in Spain - then another dozen why it's not! :whistle:
Meanwhile I took Russ's 'friendly' advice in 1997, stopped being a nurse and relocated here to Spain. Among other reasons I was p*****d off with people who a) thought I/we were idle scrounging sods, and b) must be lacking in grey matter to work so hard for the bollocks* money while they earned shed loads of dosh for sitting around in offices pressing buttons on keyboards and wondering which coffee bar** to waste the cash on next. Until, that was, they got something wrong with them ...
-Ralph- wrote: ...
No other EU country has the level immigration problem we have, no other had a camp of migrants risking thier lives to get through a tunnel. Spain has a controlled immigration policy, from within the EU. The EU isn't sending migrants in our direction, we are attracting them, it's a pull not a push. It's a UK problem because we are too soft with our interpretation of free movement, not an EU problem.
...
That's a good point Ralph - your whole post I mean - but just to put the record straight Spain's problem with illegals tends to stop here. i.e. these folks don't pass on to seek entry into the UK. This is difficult to research, obviously because so many people are 'invisible' but at least Spains' approach has been a) humanitarian and b) highly successful. But stories of deaths on the seas, mostly the Straits but also heading to the Canary Islands are - or were, see below - an almost daily news item. This video may be worth five minutes of your time:
Spain also has a policy called 'Plan Africa' which aims to work directly with the sub-Saharan and transit countries, especially Morocco naturally, to help them control their own borders as well as aim humanitarian and economic aid projects to help alleviate the problem at source. It's a valid point about the UK being in a 'pull' situation but no-one leaves home without a 'push'.
Now it's my turn to join my mate Russ in the shelter: How many people who rant about immigrant 'scroungers' have ever actually met and talked to one? Asked, or rather listened, to their stories about why the left home and family - often mortgaging the family farm, etc. to pay the traffickers, and faced death, rape, abuse of all sorts including rape and forced prostitution (especially child prostitution) - all for an uncertain future in what turn out to be a very hostile 'paradise'?
No need to get me coat - it -8º here so I've already got it on ...
Regs
Simon
* as you know I hate swearing, both in print and in the pub, but in this case I didn't Bowdlerise my text as i still feel strongly enough to break my own rules
** for this read too much alcohol at lunchtime and far too many recreational drugs at night ... so much for productivity
Be sure to visit www.thespanishbiker.com the invaluable guide to motorcycling in Spain - plus guided rides, HISS Events* and off road touring support service
Sympathise 100 percent with refugees and every Western country should do what they can to accommodate them.
My point was as more about so called "reasons" to leave the EU however than a commentary on migration.
I've lost count of how many people have bought up the situation in Calais as a reason to leave the EU, it's nothing to do with the EU, they are non EU migrants being pulled towards the UK because of what and who we are.
This thread raises the issue of 55,000 Romainians. Of course the EU and free movement of people is what makes this possible, and lets them through passport control, but if that was the root cause. every rich EU country would have the same problem to the same extent. It's the UK that attracts people to come here in the first place, it's a domestic problem not an EU problem.
If you leave food lying around your garden you'll attract mice and rats. What we seem to want to do is solve that problem by erecting electrified chicken wire around our property to stop the mice and rats getting in. Not the answer.
My reason for mentioning Spain was the residency certificate, as I understand it you have 3 months as an EU citizen to show you are not sponging off the benefits or healthcare system or you get kicked out again.
Brussels doesn't force Spain to let people stay if they aren't contributing, nor does Brussels force this on the UK.
It's UK domestic policy that allows that to happen, yet millions voted to leave the EU because of it.
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"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
That's all true.
So is the fact that the main reason for the pressure on housing (we have 650,000 empty dwellings at this moment, six hundred and fifty thousand!) schools and the NHS is the historic chronic under funding and lack of planning by our own Westminster politicians.
But of course not one of them was going to stand up and admit to that during the referendum campaign. Its a case of "Not me, guv. It's those pesky immigrants."
-Ralph- wrote:
This thread raises the issue of 55,000 Romainians. Of course the EU and free movement of people is what makes this possible, and lets them through passport control, but if that was the root cause. every rich EU country would have the same problem to the same extent. It's the UK that attracts people to come here in the first place, it's a domestic problem not an EU problem.
If you leave food lying around your garden you'll attract mice and rats. What we seem to want to do is solve that problem by erecting electrified chicken wire around our property to stop the mice and rats getting in. Not the answer.
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Correct. The domestic issue is the root problem. The UK domestic policy for allowing the EU to dictate a mandate on immigration is the reason 55,000 Romanians are allowed to walk straight into the UK without being challenged. The lack of leadership in UK domestic politics around the policies imposed by the EU and its unwillingness to stop people from leaving food lying around the garden as you put it is why the majority of people on June 23rd said they want something done about it.
No one is proposing an electrified fence, but sadly no one is doing anything at all about it either so many of us feel we are backed into a defensive corner where some people (not all) can only see the solution being the electrified fence. Sadly, we are not seeing any other credible alternative solution to the problem being suggested either, by the Government or opposition (not withstanding UKIP) and we are fed the repeated recursive argument that leaving the EU is not the answer, blah blah blah. It's certainly part of the problem, as we are part of the EU, but I would agree, not all, since the rest lies on the shoulders of the UK government.
It's like going to the Doctor and saying I have a problem, I feel unwell, only to be told by the Doctor, well, your vital signs and your blood pressure are fine so you should be feeling well, goodbye. Are you so sure and confident the patients own personal assessment is wrong that you are prepared to simply dismiss his concerns by saying we don't have any reason t think your are ill, so just go with the status quo until I get a good enough reason I think you may be ill. At what point do people actually start listening? Within the confines of politically correctness, how do I make myself heard. I know, I'll ask for an alternative opinion.
I'm a long way from being convinced that there's going to be a massive change in any government policies because we've got a PM who didn't even want to leave the EU so why is she going to drive us towards anything apart from the Brexit she has said she'll put into place.
Will she allow freedom of movement to be on the negotiating table? Yes.
Will she accept that we have to pay to be a part of any European Trade Agreement? Yes.
Will she change any existing European regulations? I doubt it.
Will we get any say in future trade negotiations by full members with other trading areas? No.
Ok, we're going to be out of the EU but I think we're going to be very close to the Norwegian model which will simply reinforce my view that we're not really gaining anything by leaving apart from a small financial saving made by not paying benefits to EU nationals. Now obviously it'll be nice to save anything but when you look at figures regarding benefits paid to immigrants we pay more to non EU nationals than EU nationals.
I personally couldn't find good enough reasons to vote leave, but that's perhaps because I'm quite comfortable and benefit from capitalism and a rich economy, so living here suits me just fine as it is. I'm not hankering for the political change many people seem to be. I've made my own bed here and I'm happy to lie in it.
My only argument for leave was sovereignty, and I was making this argument when a friend (a Portuguese one) asked me what EU law had Brussels made which adversely affected my day to day life. The truthful answer was none.
So that was that and I voted remain.
The conclusion I am rapidly coming to however is that we should leave the EU because we don't fit in it culturally!
The Spanish have a residency certificate, the French totally ignore both the smoking ban and disabled access laws, every country except us ignores food production standards, we have a bigger immigration problem than anyone else, nobody else in Europe has three bloody driving tests to get on a motorbike.
We are the neoliberalism leftist problem, so much so that we can't be members of a big club or we just allow ourselves to be shat on, or perhaps more accurately we take shit, add more shit of our own, then we bathe in it.
So let's leave and so long as we stay either in the single market or we have a free trade agreement, so our currency recovers, our economy continues to thrive and I still benefit from living in a strong capitalist economy, then I don't care about the rest.
I'm glad we were in the EU, or that Portuguese mate would never have come to the UK to study because it wouldn't have been as easy, his French girlfriend would never have introduced me to my French wife, and my life would have been very different. That my son may be less likely to have the same multicultural experiences in life is a shame, but it's already happened for me.
In other words, I'm alright Jack. Sounds selfish but I can't control what happens to anybody else, or whether the political landscape suits anybody else, so I'll just look after me and mine.
If our country had taken this approach a bit more, we perhaps wouldn't be where we are with Brexit.
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"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
AndyB wrote:Where do the other 365,000 come from and what do the anti immigration camp suggest we do with them?
Non EU Immigrants are different as they cant rent a house legally or work legally with out a valid visa
To come to the UK they must meet the very strict immigration criteria requirements in there application which gets checked over in great detail, pay a few thousand in visa fees, pass a high level English exam in speaking and listening, pay for NHS surcharge fee for full stay of visa which is around 2.5 years, when working paying Tax into the system in which they are not entitled to any of the benefits system in which they are paying into
After the 2.5 year visa is up must pay another few thousand with a new application repeating the above again
At the 5 year mark they pay a few thousand again repeating the above for permanent residence status
At the 6 year mark can pay a few thousand and apply for British Citizenship providing they meet all requirements including a full British citizenship test most British people would fail
