EU. In or out?

[Elmer J Fudd]

Harold was a good ruler...England had a strong economy and something that we would recognise as the start of a proper Government and justice sysem.

William was a warlord, and his hanger-ons were robber barons.

Even the Bayeux Tapestry (which was sewn by Saxon women, because the Normans couldn't sew) shows the Saxons as dashing and brave individuals, and the Normans as faceless thugs committing atrocities. The Normans were so thick, they didn't notice. The only thing they could do better than the Saxons was build large and ugly stone castles.

Interesting, I can't say I'm overly up on ancient English politics, was Harold not only king for a few months? I suppose that if you are going to invade a country, you are not going to be nice about it.

It also strikes me for as country so steeped in self history that England's crown has been in "foreign" hands so often, and willingly given at that.

The point, I suppose, is that we are all mongrels from Europe and have more in common than apart.

[Jak*]

I think that your conclusion Elmer is spot on the ‘British’ are very much a mongrel race and if we were more aware and proud of that it might be a good thing. The Normans, who were descendants of the Vikings, destroyed much of the previous English system and their rule led to the death of nearly half the population in twenty years. We have subsequently had kings and queens from a multitude of nations.
In some ways our civil war came too early. If it had been 100 years later the ideas that were prevalent about the rights of the common man may have prevailed and we would perhaps have deposed our monarchy and aristocracy. As a country we still seem bound to be subservient to those with power and money and frightened of giving choices and power to the masses. A situation which is propagated by the press. This makes us afraid of any challenge to that power, hence it was easy to spread a few lies about the EU and get a small majority the population (who were allowed to) to vote against it. The same thing happened with the Labour Party under Corbyn. When you actually look at what the EU has done and what Corbyn proposed to do the vast majority of the UK population would have been better off under the EU and under Corbyn’s Labour government.
I suspect even when the shit really hits the fan (if we end up with no deal) the majority will just accept it, the papers will blame the EU, Bojo will blame Covid, the rich will get richer and the majority of us will be much poorer in many ways.

[Tonibe63]

"As a country we still seem bound to be subservient to those with power and money and frightened of giving choices and power to the masses. A situation which is propagated by the press. This makes us afraid of any challenge to that power, hence it was easy to spread a few lies about the EU and get a small majority the population (who were allowed to) to vote against it."

David Camoren gave the power of choice to the masses and under our democratic system they made a decision. It may not be what I voted for and yes it would have been manipulated by the media but the result was declared. Our Politicians, our political system and the media are responsible for the outcome of the vote and the resulting mess, the population of any Country can only work with the information and the system they are given.

[daveuprite]

I think that your conclusion Elmer is spot on the ‘British’ are very much a mongrel race and if we were more aware and proud of that it might be a good thing. The Normans, who were descendants of the Vikings, destroyed much of the previous English system and their rule led to the death of nearly half the population in twenty years. We have subsequently had kings and queens from a multitude of nations.
In some ways our civil war came too early. If it had been 100 years later the ideas that were prevalent about the rights of the common man may have prevailed and we would perhaps have deposed our monarchy and aristocracy. As a country we still seem bound to be subservient to those with power and money and frightened of giving choices and power to the masses. A situation which is propagated by the press. This makes us afraid of any challenge to that power, hence it was easy to spread a few lies about the EU and get a small majority the population (who were allowed to) to vote against it. The same thing happened with the Labour Party under Corbyn. When you actually look at what the EU has done and what Corbyn proposed to do the vast majority of the UK population would have been better off under the EU and under Corbyn’s Labour government.
I suspect even when the shit really hits the fan (if we end up with no deal) the majority will just accept it, the papers will blame the EU, Bojo will blame Covid, the rich will get richer and the majority of us will be much poorer in many ways.

Must have been a while since I agreed 100% with every single comment in one decent length post. We can't know for sure, obviously, but I suspect you're probably right in all regards, Jak, if events had played out differently. During my History BA Hons I actually wrote an essay on the thesis that a British civil war or revolution contemporary with the French 1789 upheaval might have been more successful and may have led to much more representative democracy today. Several important historians have taken up this theme over the years; the great Eric Hobsbawm for one.

[Brenhden]

I think that your conclusion Elmer is spot on the ‘British’ are very much a mongrel race and if we were more aware and proud of that it might be a good thing. The Normans, who were descendants of the Vikings, destroyed much of the previous English system and their rule led to the death of nearly half the population in twenty years. We have subsequently had kings and queens from a multitude of nations.
In some ways our civil war came too early. If it had been 100 years later the ideas that were prevalent about the rights of the common man may have prevailed and we would perhaps have deposed our monarchy and aristocracy. As a country we still seem bound to be subservient to those with power and money and frightened of giving choices and power to the masses. A situation which is propagated by the press. This makes us afraid of any challenge to that power, hence it was easy to spread a few lies about the EU and get a small majority the population (who were allowed to) to vote against it. The same thing happened with the Labour Party under Corbyn. When you actually look at what the EU has done and what Corbyn proposed to do the vast majority of the UK population would have been better off under the EU and under Corbyn’s Labour government.
I suspect even when the shit really hits the fan (if we end up with no deal) the majority will just accept it, the papers will blame the EU, Bojo will blame Covid, the rich will get richer and the majority of us will be much poorer in many ways.

Must have been a while since I agreed 100% with every single comment in one decent length post. We can't know for sure, obviously, but I suspect you're probably right in all regards, Jak, if events had played out differently. During my History BA Hons I actually wrote an essay on the thesis that a British civil war or revolution contemporary with the French 1789 upheaval might have been more successful and may have led to much more representative democracy today. Several important historians have taken up this theme over the years; the great Eric Hobsbawm for one.

I also totally agree with what Jak wrote, interestingly however the US doesn't seem to be much better off (democratically speaking) but came later still.

Fascinating to hear a French polititian on Marr (I think and I'm also paraphasing heavily here) saying essentially that fishing is going to sink the trade deal and that we're both to blame and his country is resigned to losing the fishing rights as long as we lose service access. Slow hand clap all round. Everyone needs to start eating herring...

[daveuprite]

The fisheries issue is being deployed deliberately by Johnson because he knows it strikes a chord with ignorant brexiters who Farage stirred up on the issue during the 2016 campaign. Successive tory goverments have given not a damn about the fishing industry for years, they've overseen its decline, and it now forms a miniscule proportion of UK business (it employs 0.1% of the UK workforce!) - the same as the UK timber processing industry, which nobody ever talks about. But it became another of those ridiculous patriotic rallying points, driven by extreme politicians for whom brexiter xenophobia was useful and helped them to achieve their goal.

To use fishing as a reason for collapsing brexit deal talks with the EU is a disgraceful and completely false negotiating principle, which allows Johnson to paint the EU as foreign baddies and persuade his gullible but useful brexit voters to blame the 'other side' for the failure of the talks - which is entirely his own responsibility. It's childish, disingenuous and unprofessional - and totally baffling to EU negotiators, who just want to get this stupid brexit charade over the line and dealt with so that they can get back to dealing with grown ups.

[Richard Simpson Mark II]

The fishing thing is pretty much a red herring...sorry.

The UK deepwater fishing industry was wiped out by the Icelandic cod wars, at a time when neither Iceland nor the UK were EU members.

Fish caught in UK waters are generally not wanted by UK consumers because they are brown, not white.

Most UK fishermen sold their boats and quotas to EU businesses.

Many of the remaining UK-owned boats are crewed by Eastern Europeans...fishing is horrible work and British people don't want to do it.

[garyboy]

in your area .. have you noticed a huge increase in infrastructure and housing projects in the last couple of years?


if so .. is it the using up of the last of the EU funding?

or is it just a Welsh thing ???

[Jak*]

I have not noticed that much round where I live although there are some older projects with EU funding signs on them. I think we tend to have much smaller signs in our buildings etc than some other countries, I suspect part of the issue in the referendum was that people in most areas of England and Wales didn’t realise how much EU money has been spent in this country and often on projects which would not have got money from other sources. Each time I have been to Wales in the last ten years I have noticed how much has been funded there by the EU. It will be interesting to see If Westminster provides the same level of funding over the next few years.

[Asgard]

in your area .. have you noticed a huge increase in infrastructure and housing projects in the last couple of years?


if so .. is it the using up of the last of the EU funding?

or is it just a Welsh thing ???

Houses?, Id say a moderate amount of new developement, but none of that has EU Funding
Infrastructure?, No its crumbling, the roads, pavements and parks in my area are going to shit..... the only thing getting money thrown at it is the Heads of the Valleys Road