EU. In or out?

[Spike941]

A desperate bluff. He knows he’s holding a losing hand, and has done all along.

[Brenhden]

A desperate bluff. He knows he’s holding a losing hand, and has done all along.

Yep, this is not looking like taking back control. I think it was one phone call from Biden and suddenly it's all changing.

[catcitrus]

What is difficult to understand, given we now know how many times Johnson has lied to us, is that so many of the population are blindly still accepting his lies

You reckon?, nobody I know believes a word he or his Cabinet says

I agree with you totally--personally I'm fed up with some people taking the so called higher moral ground and treating people who voted for Brexit, or Conservative, as some kind of lower life form--such arrogance doesn't fit with their idea of being of "higher intelligence", and necessarily correct. In the round the POPULATION as a whole has decided--and for all sorts of reasons.

That reasoning doesn't work. Try a thought experiment. Three people. One has a club, the second has nothing, the third is in a glass cage. There's a dog in front of them, which they can all see.

The first person uses his club to beat the dog to death. The second person looks on, could intervene but doesn't. And the third person in the glass cage sees what's happening but can't intervene.

Translate that to voting on an important matter, the outcome of which affects everyone, and think about those who either didn't vote in the brexit referendum or who voted remain - compared to those who voted leave. The outcome affects everyone regardless, but some are rendered powerless by the result even though they bitterly opposed it. Try to put yourself in their shoes. Is it really a good idea to tell them to just suck it up and shut up, or to try to paint them as arrogant, superior, or whatever - when they are continually able to provide evidence of what they regard as a mistaken decision? Might you not look like a 'sore winner'? Imagine a vote is held on a subject you feel strongly about, your viewpoint very narrowly loses the vote, and the winners tell you to stop raising the subject in future because you 'lost', even though they were vociferous on their own behalf for years beforehand.

What "evidence"--and what does your continued "argument" actually achieve? Its like any election or vote--some get what they voted for, and some don't, but a measure of character is acceptance of the result--and then trying to make the best of it. We have all been subject to losing a vote in our lives--I'm not cheering about Brexit--and the path ahead will not be easy---so basically we all need to "suck it up" as you put it and make the best of it--how about a bit of positivity?---I really think that the time for arguing against Brexit has long since passed---you will have ample time to vote/reverse any decisions in the years ahead--and again the majority view will prevail ---Brexit might be reversed---but whatever happens I will accept the majority and the "will of the people". I will not comment further on this post as there is no point--the horse has bolted!!--we all have our own opinions and I have better/more important things to concentrate on.

[Slowboy]

What is difficult to understand, given we now know how many times Johnson has lied to us, is that so many of the population are blindly still accepting his lies

You reckon?, nobody I know believes a word he or his Cabinet says

I agree with you totally--personally I'm fed up with some people taking the so called higher moral ground and treating people who voted for Brexit, or Conservative, as some kind of lower life form--such arrogance doesn't fit with their idea of being of "higher intelligence", and necessarily correct. In the round the POPULATION as a whole has decided--and for all sorts of reasons.

That reasoning doesn't work. Try a thought experiment. Three people. One has a club, the second has nothing, the third is in a glass cage. There's a dog in front of them, which they can all see.

The first person uses his club to beat the dog to death. The second person looks on, could intervene but doesn't. And the third person in the glass cage sees what's happening but can't intervene.

Translate that to voting on an important matter, the outcome of which affects everyone, and think about those who either didn't vote in the brexit referendum or who voted remain - compared to those who voted leave. The outcome affects everyone regardless, but some are rendered powerless by the result even though they bitterly opposed it. Try to put yourself in their shoes. Is it really a good idea to tell them to just suck it up and shut up, or to try to paint them as arrogant, superior, or whatever - when they are continually able to provide evidence of what they regard as a mistaken decision? Might you not look like a 'sore winner'? Imagine a vote is held on a subject you feel strongly about, your viewpoint very narrowly loses the vote, and the winners tell you to stop raising the subject in future because you 'lost', even though they were vociferous on their own behalf for years beforehand.

Nice point Dave. It is of course a specious argument to turn a complex issue into a binary, won or lost, one. Couple that with the old standard of “if they’re not with us they are against us” allied to “and they must therefore remain silent” has serious authoritarian overtones. I like living in a country where I can strongly disagree or agree such are my options and voice that without the playground “shut up ‘cause you lost” argument. I strongly disagree with a good friend of mine over Brexit, he is out and I was in. We remain good friends.
I accept the result, I am in a democracy after all, but I will continue to challenge those who tell me it’s going to be better because I have not met one who can provide me with actual evidence of how my life will be better as a result.
I can see an elite for whom it will be better, especially over the ”taking back control” argument as they will be handed much more power, over us. It will not be the common man who takes back control over anything.
There are a number of families in Liverpool for instance who could not look themselves in the mirror if they’d taken that approach after Hillsboro’ and all the muck that was slung at them afterwards by politicians, the press and the “establishment” that many people sucked up and regurgitated as the truth.
It was forever thus with politics, but this is the moment that’s a once in our generation impact on us all. We all rise or fall together, and I will continue to work in my own community in my own small way to see what I can do to make some small things better. I do not believe I will be assisted in this by the decision, but I try to remain positive. The current political turmoil shows the internal fight that always exists in political parties, that it has burst into the public arena at such a key time does not appear, to me at least, to bode well.

[daveuprite]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... tudy-finds

Should be encouraged by this study I suppose, but given what the UK is about to do it's kind of absurd. All a bit late now. What a mess.

[Jak*]

It does not surprise me. In the last few years whenever I have had the opportunity to go to Europe and met with locals the conversation has almost inevitably turned to Brexit. Whilst most Europeans have some gripes, often about bureaucracy or corruption most think the EU is doing a good job and virtually all see the necessity of being in a large trading group in the current world environment. Not one of them mentioned that they felt a loss of sovereignty through being in the EU. I guess the total cock up that Bojo and his pals have made of dealing with Covid have cast the EU in a better light and also the current electorate has changed since 2016.
There was an interesting article in the FT today in which the UK’s chief negotiator, David Frost, predicted in 2016 that the EU would have the upper hand in any post Brexit negotiation and that we would be the weaker partner in virtually all other post Brexit trade negotiations. I guess that was the sovereignty we voted for to be subservient to the rest of the world. I am sure that was worth throwing forty years of increased peace and prosperity away for.

[Jak*]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/54798942
This articles shows one of the reasons why the argument over fishing may be a red herring. The last line just about sums up the whole fiasco.

[Elmer J Fudd]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... tudy-finds

Should be encouraged by this study I suppose, but given what the UK is about to do it's kind of absurd. All a bit late now. What a mess.

Agree, however extrapolating a few countries' results to all the whole EU is a tad cheeky, especially as these are generally regarded as core supporting countries. Maybe if the eastern countries and Greece were included that would give it more credence.

Why not survey all and have a legitimate, unquestionable result?

[daveuprite]

[Spike941]

Can’t confirm any of these figures, but there appears to be a trend.


EU Membership: 34p per person per day.

“Cost spent on Brexit since 2016: 91p per person per day.

“Estimated cost of Brexit: £4.15 per person per day

“Estimated cost of No Deal Brexit: £5.81 per person per day

“Nigel Farage’s earnings from TV and radio since 2016: £541.10 per day”