EU. In or out?

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garyboy
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by garyboy » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:17 am

I think I have always been confused with the choice of political persuasion, as my heart aligns with lefty social justice, but my head can be hard right wing towards abuse of the benefits system, and like to see a strong UK defence policy.

.. I suppose that is where the term `middle of the road` comes from?

JC expounds some marvellous socialist policies; nationalisation in particular .. but doesn't seem to want to defend the UK.
He wants to question the 2016 referendum result by another vote .. and I cannot align with that.

Lib Dems are openly un-democratic and il-liberal with their `revoke` policy.

Greens and Plaid Cymru also do not want to respect the voice of the people.

Tories have a bad track record of `austerity`; a shameful killer., but have cleverly based their campaign on `Brexit`; a freedom for the UK-life policy, which I agree with.

SNP are aggressive `independence from the UK` people, but want the tyranny of the EU.

DUP want unity with the UK, but not with their closer land-neighbour, Ireland.


For the first time, I genuinely do not know which way to turn, politically. :?
Its much easier by bike .. as I always take the wrong turn, .. but that's just life. :roll:

I will probably just not vote, again :(
as going for the `least worst choice` is not my thing 8-)

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Jak*
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Jak* » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:13 pm

I am still not clear about how ‘respecting’ the result of a very close advisory referendum, about an unclear choice, which happened three and a half years ago, could be considered more democratic than suggesting a new referendum once the terms of a deal are clarified.
Personally I do not think the country can cope with anymore of the systematic destruction and sale of public services that the Tories have presided over and will undoubtedly continue under their tenure. Unfortunately in my constituency there are a majority that always vote Tory and will always do so despite all the evidence of the harmful impact their policies cause. One of the problems of our so called democratic system is that there are far too many constituencies across the UK where voters are in a similar position. Unfortunately this leads to people feeling disenfranchised and failing to carry out their hard fought for right to vote.
Although I find his language a bit tiresome, this is worth watching again and certainly showing to young voters.

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Trev » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:41 pm

Jak* wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:13 pm
I am still not clear about how ‘respecting’ the result of a very close advisory referendum, about an unclear choice, which happened three and a half years ago, could be considered more democratic than suggesting a new referendum once the terms of a deal are clarified.
Personally I do not think the country can cope with anymore of the systematic destruction and sale of public services that the Tories have presided over and will undoubtedly continue under their tenure. Unfortunately in my constituency there are a majority that always vote Tory and will always do so despite all the evidence of the harmful impact their policies cause. One of the problems of our so called democratic system is that there are far too many constituencies across the UK where voters are in a similar position. Unfortunately this leads to people feeling disenfranchised and failing to carry out their hard fought for right to vote.
Although I find his language a bit tiresome, this is worth watching again and certainly showing to young voters.

Cheers.
Such a good point, two of my three children didn't vote in the referendum yet were mortified when the result turned out to be leave. Ironically they were both travelling in Europe at the time (one on a 125 bike, the other by train) enjoying the freedom and benefits that EU membership gives them. Oh how they wish they had voted!

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by garyboy » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:12 pm

Jak* wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:13 pm
I am still not clear about how ‘respecting’ the result of a very close advisory referendum,
VERY CLOSE IS CLOSE ENOUGH?
ADVISORY BUT PROMISED TO BE REPSECTED AND FOLLOWED?

about an unclear choice,
YES .. IN .. OR OUT … IS VERY UNCLEAR

which happened three and a half years ago,
YES .. REMAINER PARLIAMENT HAS HELD OFF THE DECISION THAT LONG!

could be considered more democratic than suggesting a new referendum once the terms of a deal are clarified.
YES .. STUPID PEOPLE SHOULD BE MADE TO VOTE AGAIN UNTIL THEY GET IT RIGHT

.. .. .. people feeling disenfranchised and failing to carry out their hard fought for right to vote.
AND THEIR RIGHT NOT TO VOTE, TOO.
Although I find his language a bit tiresome, this is worth watching again and certainly showing to young voters.
THESE YOUNG IGNORANT VOTERS ARE THE FUTURE! AND DESERVE REPECT


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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Jak* » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:21 pm

If IN OUT was so clear why is it that so many leavers are still unclear about it? As the vote was so close, the best outcome would surely be to find a compromise, however the Brexit party and the ERG have not allowed that to happen, because their interpretation of the questions was a hard or no deal Brexit, which was not the question. For some reason Farage etc forgot about NI when the put they pressed for the referendum and none of them have come up with a solution that is practical or acceptable. I suspect there are many in the Tory party who would like to rid England of NI and Scotland as it would help their political and business interests.
If it were only the ardent Leavers and those who pushed us into this ridiculous situation who were going to suffer I would say leave and damn the consequences, but unfortunately I think it will probably take the rest of my working life for the country to recover from the damage that has already been caused and if we pursue a hard or no deal solution it will according to Rees Mogg and Gove take my children’s and possible grandchildren’s working lives as well.
I don’t believe all those who voted Leave are or were stupid, I do believe that they were lied to and were sold an impractical dream. There is nothing that I have heard since in the media, or on this forum that shows me any practical advantages for the majority of the population. I am quite happy to believe that those in very favourable financial positions, including a significant number of politicians and some businessmen will be better off.
I would love to hear some real positive advantages of leaving, but all most Leavers seem to come up with is a cry to respect democracy and yet it is our democracy that is stalling the process. If we can achieve a great deal then surely they have nothing to be frightened of in putting it to the vote again. We can surely expect a much clearer victory this time. Remember it was NF who said a result of 52 to 48% would be unfinished business. Probably the only true statement he has ever made.
We need to encourage all voters to use their vote and to find out as much as they can about the possible consequences of their vote before they use it. Two of the most popular searches after the referendum were ‘What does it mean to leave the EU?’ and ‘What is the EU?’ Whether the result would have been different had people asked these questions first I guess we will never know but at least a few more people might have known what they were voting for or against.
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by DavidS » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:52 pm

I keep asking these questions but never get a reply.
What criteria for a second referendum result do you have?
Remainers complained about it being a simple majority so, as the legal status quo is now to leave, what do you propose?
Morally you can’t agree to a simple majority again as you have already emphatically objected to it but then what percentages? If it was, say, 60%, then even at 59% we would still leave. Would you honestly accept that? I suspect hypocrisy would ensue.

What is the question?
It can only be a basic remain or leave but what terms do you have for the leave vote? Parliament won’t (not can’t) agree on anything so how can we be asked a question?

As an aside.
How come all those weeping people can’t organise a postal vote?
Being able to troll around Europe without a short wait at a border is hardly reason to stay. There are other countries in the world and we seem to travel to them pretty easily so I doubt it would be any worse than that.
Last edited by DavidS on Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by garyboy » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:54 pm

thankyou jak ..

if we believe mr farage, the Johnson deal is not a real exit from the eu .. so perhaps this deal is in fact a compromise .. and appeal to both leavers and remainers ?

the reason that NI has been an issue is that it is an anomaly .. unfinished business in re-unification of Ireland.
I never really understood why the uk is holding onto it so fatally tenaciously, and assumed that it has business interests in the region?

and Scotland .. sorry but I cant understand a word they say (no offence to Scottish bikers, of course) .. and of course are hated by the English as much as the english hate us welsh, .. .. but not so much as the scots hate the English .. so much for `union` ?

as for our children and grandchildren .. they have the great sense to ignore all this shite .. just shrug and get on with real life .. for better or for worse. While we excruciate .. they are living for the future, in whatever condition that is.

as `advantages of leaving` .. as previously said .. if you dont `get it` you cant be told … like you cant explain the sense of freedom you get on a bike.

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Jak* » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:07 pm

Or the sense of freedom you have from being in the EU.
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by OB1 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:10 pm

garyboy wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:54 pm
and Scotland .. sorry but I cant understand a word they say (no offence to Scottish bikers, of course) .. and of course are hated by the English as much as the english hate us welsh, .. .. but not so much as the scots hate the English .. so much for `union` ?
I think I see the problem here: Euro Skeptics seem to "hate" everyone whereas those who want to remain part of the Union don't use those terms...
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by DavidS » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:20 pm

You seem to substitute ‘everyone’ for the EU as an ‘object’, although I’m not sure where your comment was heading.
We are, however, back to the racist labelling again and it is getting rather tiring and irritating.
I don’t knowingly hate anyone, particularly in Europe, as I have had and will have plenty if holidays there but I don’t share their vision for the European State. Not sure that makes me xenophobic...I certainly know I am not and I suspect not that many of the 17.4 million or whatever are either. Tabloid borrox being regurgitated for negative effect.
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