EU. In or out?

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simonw
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by simonw » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:59 pm

garyboy wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:35 am
Andy, you are right to be wary of clicking on unknown links .. some may even lead to you to see the awful truth
..although there is little chance of that with the Daily Mail of course. (I was quite close to a situation which it reported on several years ago, and what was published was so far from the truth of the matter that it appeared almost entirely made up. What made it worse was that it was a very sad matter which was made all the more painful for everyone involved, by false reporting.)

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DavidS
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by DavidS » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:38 pm

I haven’t bought or read a newspaper (other than while in a cafe) for about 25 years now.
I do my best to filter out the right stuff from television news but that is becoming more difficult now they have an obsession with bad news or, worse still, celebrities.
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Jak* » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:21 pm

Would you read a road test of a new bike on Friday and go out and sign up for a PCP deal for it on the Saturday? If you would, then I am sorry in my opinion you have more money than sense. Obviously that may apply to some of our members of parliament, but surely we are paying them to scrutinise any future deal and weigh up the pros and cons. Boris’s deal could be a good one, but the implication of his desperation to push it through implies that he has something to hide. The potential break up of the union, reduction in workers rights and financial insecurity are all possibilities. Of course all these things can be sacrificed in the name of ‘democracy’.
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by DavidS » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:38 pm

I don’t disagree with your post at all but the problem is that it has gone way beyond that now. I don't think I said anything that would infer it.

However, it has gone way beyond that now. This ‘deal’ is only an interim agreement prior to a full agreement by, I think, the end of 2020 but probably beyond based on these delays. If Labour were so confident of being in government I assume they could easily bring in laws tying the UK to follow EU labour laws etc either unilaterally or through that agreement.

Staying in the customs union is in absolutely no way the Brexit that was voted for as it removes the freedom of the UK to make it’s own trade agreements. A fundamental basis of leaving. Controlling immigration is completely different to stopping immigration and, as was stated at lunchtime, the much needed seasonal workers from the EU (because the UK public won’t do the work) does not count as immigration.

The big problem is the Irish border but the entrenched views of both sides based on, what I perceive to be appeasing terrorists, but I admit to not knowing how you could bring everyone together on it. I don’t recall Remain warning of difficulties in the run up to the referendum.
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Jak* » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:09 pm

One of the major obstacles to achieving an outcome that the majority of people, let alone MPs agree on is that it was never entirely clear what Leave voters did for for. There are many Leave voters who believed that we could simply carry on trading with the EU as before but without paying them any money, without having any pesky immigrants, and without them tellin* us to straighten our bananas. Leave means leave, meant so many different things. I do not think that most people voted for poverty, a break up of the union, reduced workers rights, more expensive European holidays, a weaker place in the world order, etc. If this had been the choice would they still have still have voted Leave?
Maybe Boris’s deal will not lead to all these things, but if I was an MP on either side of the argument I would want some clarity before I voted for it. If your MP does not seek that clarity surely they are not doing their job.
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by daveuprite » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:30 pm

DavidS wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:38 pm

The big problem is the Irish border but the entrenched views of both sides based on, what I perceive to be appeasing terrorists, but I admit to not knowing how you could bring everyone together on it. I don’t recall Remain warning of difficulties in the run up to the referendum.
Then that just confirms what you said in another post above, Dave- i.e. that you haven't read a newspaper in 25 years. There was a great deal of comment in serious newspapers about the effect of brexit on NI back in 2016, especially as the referendum approached. Obviously not in the tabloids / Daily Mail / Express etc, which are only useful when your toilet roll runs out. But The Times covered it, Polly Toynbee in The Guardian did a series of articles on it, and even The New York Times dedicated space to it. Many expert commentators flagged the risks to the GFA and the impossibility of retaining a seamless EU/NI border while simultaneously leaving the Single Market and Customs Union.

As usual, the powerful rhetoric of faragist brexiteers, combined with poor educational levels and a total lack of critical scrutiny on the part of many brexit voters conspired to ignore all the intellectual debate - and sure enough we now have a predictable (and predicted) mess that leavers won't accept is their fault because they can't psychologically admit to their mistakes, and about which remainers don't really want to say 'we told you so' in case they get a smack in the mouth. What a total FU...

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by DavidS » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:40 pm

You are probably right but not reading a newspaper doesn’t make me ill informed.
If the DUP hadn’t held a balance of power, the fuss would probably have been much less. As I understand it, NI already have a number of special cases that make them different from the rest of the UK

Many moons ago I clearly stated that my reasons for leaving were substantially historical, not based on current rhetoric. Total borrox was spouted by both sides, which is conveniently forgotten,

I also said ages ago that the referendum should have been to explore leaving, not a categorical leave.
This could have been handled much much better by all parties but, in the end, we have what we have. A devious undermining of the referendum result does no-one any good and seriously damages the image of MPs even lower than it already was.
How did TM get three goes at a vote but BJ not even the vote, just the debate.

Just to rub it in and make me even lower in your estimation, I thought his letters to the EU hilarious. Boy has it wound people up.
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by HedgeHopper » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:46 pm

I know its an easy target richard but conflating the idiocy of the current PM with the whole issue of Brexit and insisting they are interchangeable arguements is tomfoolery of the greatest order, it only works on idiots of the same level as those who voted based on what he and some other arseholes told them.

...and as much as the self declared intelligencia of the remain reality twisters continue to insist all leavers voted on the basis of what was written on the side of a bus or in the daily mail, or perhaps simply because they are racist hate-mongers, well likewise such disingeuous rantings find purchase only in the muddled thought processes of the feeble minded whose number is greatly over estimated by those who should know better

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Pint Master » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:08 pm


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