EU. In or out?

[garyboy]

If the referendum had gone Remain with the same figures, I honestly believe there would have been no repercussions other than ..

So David.........as clearly the referendum was poorly thought out and executed, any sane society would accept this and arrange a correctly organised rerun before it is too late.

But that way lies equivalent disaster in any future referendum as the sore loser will always use the same excuse as there would be a precedent. ..
the political establishment is undemocratic !

Another referendum will almost certainly not resolve the situation for once and for all as it will clearly be just as close, either way, so where does that leave it? If Remain won by the same margin, Leave will be equally entitled to ask for another go

EXACTLY !!!!!!!!

ITS NOT THAT PEOPLE CANNOT SEE THIS .. THEY JUST DONT WANT TO.

I am appalled by how many senior british figures are coming out, lately, in favour of a second vote.
hessletine, Corbyn, starmar, cable, .. ..

Listening to Tusk this evening it was clear that he had helped orchestrate the leaving problems.. we can now see how trying to leave the eu is causing so much problems (meaning uk Brexit)

[garyboy]

I've never heard so much bollox spouted by a bunch of toys out the pram Losers in all my life, ffs get a grip, we had a peoples vote, thats what a fucking referendum is.

oh dear! the only bollox (sic) is your increasing hysteria.

a psychiatrist visited a mental institution to assess the patients.
he could not complete the work in one day and had to stay overnight.
he was asked if he wanted breakfast in the morning.
he agreed and woke up in anticipation.
however, no breakfast came and he was told he would have to wait until another day.
But i am only here for a short time, he said, looking closely at the nurse attendant.
Dont i know you, he said, you look like one of the patients i interviewed yesterday.
o dear, said the attendant, you really believe you are the doctor, dont you.
The doctor starting screaming ... ahrrrrrrrrgggghhh

this is a load of bollox, he gasped ..
the attendant's reply?
oh dear! the only bollox (sic) is your increasing hysteria.

[OB1]

They are allowed to vote in general and local government elections if they've done the paperwork and their tax money goes towards funding the facilities that they enjoy here but I don't think as non-UK citizens they should be able to vote on something as fundamental to the bedrock of the UK, in the same way, I wouldn't expect them to be called up for military service in the event of war.

Here's a scenario: in 1994, Jaques comes to the UK to study Maths at the University of Manchester where he achieves a first-class honours degree. Whilst studying, he meets and falls in love with Sophie and, once they graduate, they get married and settle in Manchester where they both get jobs and have a couple of children. For all of this time, Jaques is still is French citizen (or one of any other of the EU states) but he is perfectly entitled to live, work and raise his family within the UK without having to apply for citizenship. He pays into the system for over 20 years, just as you and I have done. Are you saying that he should have had no right to vote in a referendum which will affect him and his family even though he has lived here for more than half his life?

[daveuprite]

They are allowed to vote in general and local government elections if they've done the paperwork and their tax money goes towards funding the facilities that they enjoy here but I don't think as non-UK citizens they should be able to vote on something as fundamental to the bedrock of the UK, in the same way, I wouldn't expect them to be called up for military service in the event of war.

Here's a scenario: in 1994, Jaques comes to the UK to study Maths at the University of Manchester where he achieves a first-class honours degree. Whilst studying, he meets and falls in love with Sophie and, once they graduate, they get married and settle in Manchester where they both get jobs and have a couple of children. For all of this time, Jaques is still is French citizen (or one of any other of the EU states) but he is perfectly entitled to live, work and raise his family within the UK without having to apply for citizenship. He pays into the system for over 20 years, just as you and I have done. Are you saying that he should have had no right to vote in a referendum which will affect him and his family even though he has lived here for more than half his life?

Well put, OB. And that scenario is not exceptional at all - it is replicated all over the place, and demonstrates nicely the advantages and freedoms ALL of us have had by virtue of EU membership.

Then extend your case over the channel to the 1.5 million UK passport-holding citizens who choose to reside abroad. Most of us paid our taxes in the UK for years/decades when we worked there and we have a RIGHT to vote in elections, just as EU27 citizens resident and paying tax in the UK have that right (in the European Parliamentary Elections). The UK government has denied that right to those of us who have lived away from the UK over 15 years (I'm on 11 years right now) and this is rightly being contested in court.

The recent shift towards the extreme right in british politics has brought a kind of misdirected crude patriotism and nativism, which now even extends to calls to exclude foreign-resident UK citizens from their own elections. Well OK if the island literally wants to pull up the drawbridge in an interconnected world then more fool it, but that should then be accompanied by a total exclusion of foreign-resident UK citizens from the consequences of british political decisions. If you really don't want us to have a vote in the UK, then we must not be affected by british decisions - which would suit most of us fine because we much prefer to keep the EU freedoms and advantages we have now and do not wish to be dragged out of those advantages against our will. You can't have it both ways. Stupidly turn your back to the world if you want, but don't include us in your isolated stupidity if you won't let us vote against it.

[OB1]

Here's another anomaly that is thrown up by all of this... and this actually happened: in 1997 through to 2000, I studied at the University of Lincolnshire and Humberside where I met and fell in love with a girl from Hong Kong. We dated throughout university and I moved out to Hong Kong in 2002 where we were married. Being unable to find a job, I returned to the UK in 2003 and she followed me back a few months late when her firm agreed for her to work in their London office. Things didn't turn out well and we separated in 2006 but remained friends. She carried on living and working in London for another couple of years before moving back to Hong Kong. In the meantime, she applied for and gained dual citizenship and a British passport. We eventually divorced in 2012.

In total, she lived in the UK for around 6 years and paid into the system for about four of those. She was given a postal vote during the referendum...

[daveuprite]

I think I would argue for a new EU citizenship status and an EU passport. That would give anyone in the EU 28 (as it is for the moment) the right to travel, work and settle freely within the union, to vote in EU parliamentary elections, and to vote in national elections in the country where they are currently resident paying taxes. I'd sign up for one of those today and happily upgrade from my UK passport, which if brexit goes ahead is about to lose many of its advantages.

[DavidS]

A question for daveuprite or any other permanent expat.
This has no judgemental implications but a genuine quest for information.
My understanding is that you have to pay tax to France but then are allowed to not get a double hit from the UK.

What contributions do you have to make to the UK when living abroad permanently other than interest on savings (if you are allowed to use a UK bank anyway). I guess you rightly get proportional pension rights for the number of years when working here.

[Africa John]

BBC News - Brexit: Boris Johnson ordered to appear in court over £350m claim
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48445430

The latest twist. I voted Leave but am happy that this accountability and scrutiny is being brought to bear on this idiot as I didn't vote based on his ramblings. God forbid this bumbling mumbling half wit becomes PM


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[daveuprite]

A question for daveuprite or any other permanent expat.
This has no judgemental implications but a genuine quest for information.
My understanding is that you have to pay tax to France but then are allowed to not get a double hit from the UK.

What contributions do you have to make to the UK when living abroad permanently other than interest on savings (if you are allowed to use a UK bank anyway). I guess you rightly get proportional pension rights for the number of years when working here.

It's a bit complicated and depends on your circumstances and sources of income. I can only safely talk about our particular situation.

We rent out a flat in London and one in Leeds. The income goes into our UK bank account and we transfer it as and when we need it into our French bank account, preferably when the exchange rate is favourable. We have lost about 20% on this since the 2016 referendum £/Euro exchange rate collapse.

Because we have this UK income source we have to complete an HMRC self-declaration form every year.

But because we are resident in France all our 'worldly wealth' is taxed in France, and the two countries signed a double taxation agreement some years ago.

Of course we also complete an annual french tax declaration too, and we declare what we earn from the UK flats, plus interest on bank accounts (in both countries) and what I earn from my small business here in France. The business gets us into the health system so that we can use Carte Vitale health cards and get full cover with a small insurance top-up.

We are only taxed once, by the french authorities. There's a minimum income threshold here, just like the UK, and you only pay tax over that level, at an increasing rate the more you earn over further thresholds, and depending on how many people/children are in your household.

We're both too young to claim our pensions yet, which were accrued in the UK, but when we reach 60 they'll be paid into the UK account and we'll draw it down in the same way. A crash-out no deal brexit threatens this system and we're not sure quite how money transfers would work.

Other people's circumstances are much more complicated than ours, but I think the double taxation agreement still applies to everyone. Luckily this is a bilateral agreement not an EU one, so hopefully isn't affected by brexit.

[Richard Simpson Mark II]

Interesting opinion from the other side of The Pond here...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/28/opin ... rexit.html