EU. In or out?

[garyboy]

the argument now seems to be ,,"you read it in the newspapers, you heard it on TV, you can quote it from the internet sources .. so it must be `fake`"

[AlanHolt]

Not entirely, but when people say things like immigration is bad, and I ask them to give one real life example of where immigration has had a negative impact on their life, they invariably can't and say that they see it on the TV or in the papers. So forget the media, give a personal negative reason for being in the EU.

[Spike941]

At a dinner party last year, a Brexit voting friend and his wife had some very strong opinions. These I questioned and after dismantling each reason they gave for voting to leave, (they accepted they didn’t really know what they were talking about) eventually turned to immigration. (Always seems to be their last reason somehow) Referring to a school that neither they or their children had been to, in a town they didn’t live in, had too many immigrant children in it. You can’t win.

[OB1]

perhaps some people, especially those actually living in the EU mainland, see the EU as a `Flat Earth` enclosed womb of safety that is a panacea and eutopia when viewed through their own personal preference rose goggles. All cognitive functions and ability to sustain a logical train of thought is erased in denial of the facts which are transformed to suit their own little world of blind bliss while riding their silver unicorns through foreign heavens.

juss kiddin innit

Really... kidding... okay.

I live in Ipswich, in a 2-up, 2-down terrace house in the middle of buy-to-let land full of Eastern Europeans. Some of the properties are 5+ blokes to a 2 or 3 bed terrace filling up the streets with their 20 year old 4 door German saloons. If I walk down to the shops or into town, I am lucky to hear an Englush voice. It's very distant from the sunny Eurpean country pile in which you may think all remoaners live.

I'm happy with where I live for the moment and I have no issues with my neighbours. The area has improved over the 15 years that I have lived here with the population changing from unemployed British families to fully employed Europeans.

[garyboy]

its looking more and more likely that Mrs May's deal will eventually get through, albeit slightly altered to suit, due to her own personal doggedness and strength and beliefs, which can also be said for the EU negotiators.
Hopefully all the benefits of EU membership will be retained, and all the benefits of being a democratic self-governing entity .. though this is difficult to comprehend, as it really is `having your cake and eating it`, and the ERG see this deal as a `sell out`, believing it holds us into the EU, possibly for ever.

It is difficult to assess the reality, as we have not read the 500+ page document, and even top lawyers have difficulty interpreting the exact meanings. and there is so much lies and fake news and misrepresentations.

but the 4 freedoms would seem to become the 3 freedoms, trade, goods+ services, money. with freedom of movement of people being more controlled but with present EU and UK residents being allowed to remain. and with the UK being able to trade independently with the rest of the world.

There is already a trend for UK wages to increase, with foreign nationals returning to their own countries, with the corresponding relief to public services, housing, schools etc

Perhaps Austerity will soon `Really` end, when Mrs May steps down after her EU deal is passed? and a more compassionate form of governance returns, and the end of Brexit uncertainty will begin to heal old wounds and division, leading to a happier more prosperous UK society.

[daveuprite]

Hopefully all the benefits of EU membership will be retained,

How depressing that after all this time, you have misunderstood the May deal so badly. It involves leaving the single market and the customs union ! Of course the benefits of EU membership won't be retained. Those benefits are explicitly abandoned by May's plan. It's why she lost her vote on it in the commons by over 200 votes ! It's the hardest possible brexit short of completely crashing out with nothing.

The only way under May's plan that the UK will evenly remotely approach the same level of benefits it gets now is if she manages to negotiate (within her 2 year transition period) some kind of inferior trade deal - and even that poor outcome is far from guaranteed. The only advantage of any sort contained within May's deal is that it puts off the worst aspects of brexit for 2 years. But as soon as A50 is enacted it's academic - the damage becomes inevitable.

So we are left with a giant clusterfuck, led by proven incompetents. I suppose the only vaguely useful way out of the maze seems to be the Kyle amendment, which Labour now looks like it might reluctantly support; i.e: MPs will support May's deal IF the public decide they prefer it to 'remain' in a ratification referendum.

[Brenhden]

We are governed by the incompetent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47414699

[Trev]

We are governed by the incompetent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47414699

Agreed but, and this is the difference between the UK (and most European countries) and some contries around the world; if anyone really wants to have a go at doing better then there is a path to being able to try. I'm happy to let others get on with taking the crap and hassle for what is not much money leaving me to make my own way in the world with the odd moan and grizzle about 'them in power'. Could I do any better, very unlikely, can I be bothered to try, not a chance ...... and I suspect that applies to the vast amount of people who moan about politicians (of all flavours)

[Brenhden]

We are governed by the incompetent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47414699

Agreed but, and this is the difference between the UK (and most European countries) and some contries around the world; if anyone really wants to have a go at doing better then there is a path to being able to try. I'm happy to let others get on with taking the crap and hassle for what is not much money leaving me to make my own way in the world with the odd moan and grizzle about 'them in power'. Could I do any better, very unlikely, can I be bothered to try, not a chance ...... and I suspect that applies to the vast amount of people who moan about politicians (of all flavours)

Very true that. I think this is more the fault of Whitehall than Grayling.

[DavidS]

Look at the alternative to the Tories....if there is one.
A Tory coalition is probably a better and more likely prospect than any Labour involvement in any government as they would almost certainly be a bigger disaster for the country, remain or leave. Discuss at your leisure

I really don’t like PR as you seem to lose the personal touch of your own MP as my understanding is you get allocated someone from a party list depending on which way the vote goes in your constituency but maybe the time has come to go that route. There is little incentive for MPs to work for their constituents as they (should) do now.

Referring back to the EU version, the lack of interest from UK voters is probably because of general EU apathy plus the lack of apparent involvement in local matters from our MEPs. I doubt 10% of thevpopulation know who their MEP is. Also being one voice in 28 countries surely doesn’t have the same influence as one voice in, essentially, two major parties in the UK. The EU has to be too unweildy.