EU. In or out?

[Scott_rider]

Just a small point but Article 50 was triggered in 2017 not 2016 so I reckon they didn’t know what to do straight after the referendum anyway, otherwise they would have triggered it earlier.

[Brenhden]

Just a small point but Article 50 was triggered in 2017 not 2016 so I reckon they didn’t know what to do straight after the referendum anyway, otherwise they would have triggered it earlier.

I think with hindsight everyone agrees that we shouldn't have triggered article fifty until we agreed a deal, but the powers that be thought it would act as a motivator to get a deal. It's not really worked out so well. It is almost impossible to get all our laws and agreements ready by March 29.

[daveuprite]

I don't understand the problem that those in favour have with another referendum?

Well I think it's fairly obvious, Trev, that keen leavers are seriously worried that 'the will of the people' (as you say, a ridiculous phrase) has in fact changed. They see the 2016 ref as the high-point in their battle to leave the EU and want to freeze that moment in time as if opinion can not be allowed to change. Of course, if the result had been 70% leave / 30% remain then that kind of victorious grandstanding might be more justified. But it wasn't - it was a wafer thin majority based on a campaign characterised by lies and fraud. Which is all the more reason for the desperation we see among brexiters to cling on to that result as if it is the last word in public opinion on the subject.

They always use the 'democracy' argument as if the referendum of 2.5 years ago provided some kind of permanent recording of how the public felt and that would never change. Funnily enough it was the arch-brexiteer David Davis who once said that 'a nation is not a democracy if it cannot change its mind', which nicely illustrates the hypocrisy of leavers on this subject.

The problem is, how often do you test public opinion with referendums on key issues? How often do you then re-test that opinion? Most importantly, how do you know that the voters have properly understood the facts, are well-informed, and therefore in a good position to choose? And why have representation in parliament but then not trust the representatives to take decisions on our behalf? That is the basis of our democracy after all, flawed though it may be sometimes.

If the Eu Ref proves anything it is how complex issues cannot be solved by a simple snapshot poll. It took 40 years of discussion, debate, negotiation and voting for the countries within the EU to establish the relationship they have with one another now. It could never take 2 years for one country to disentangle. IMO the referendum should never have been held, and it was clearly an in-house tory tactic to help itself out of a pickle of its own making, and has back-fired dramatically. Similarly another referendum is a poor means to settle things. BUT we are where we are and something has to give to get the UK out of the mess the tories have created.

So it does look as though there are only two sensible courses of action. Preferably admit that the whole thing was a ghastly mistake, revoke A50 and hang on to the favourable terms that the UK currently has within the EU. Or go back to the country for a second opinion and hope that 2 or 3 years of debate has left the voters a bit better informed and in a better position to decide.

[Brenhden]

Recently I've decided that rather than entrench myself in my own opinions and dismiss or insult the other side I've made a point of finding people with drastically opposing views on this and sit down and listen to see where they are coming from. This is what I have heard:

In the 2016 vote the people supporting leave went to the local old peoples homes in my area and all the vote leave OAPs were assisted to polling booths to cast their votes. I was astonished. Firstly I think that's great that people were helped to exercise there democratic right, although it would be nicer to think that they then carried on volunteering down there. I think its safe to say that remain voters did nothing of the sort.

Every person I asked said they would not have voted for May's deal and also blamed remainers for brexit being stalled, which shows a certain amount of cognitive dissonance. When asked about the second vote most said they will never vote again for anything.

We all agreed that at the next general election most MPs will lose their seats and that whoever takes them will be no better than the outgoing ones.

Most leave voters want to leave with no deal. But none of them will be directly affected if businesses like manufacturing suffer, all said it would be worth it for other people to lose their jobs whilst feeling safe that it won't be them. All felt that British people needed protecting (bit more cognitive dissonance) and that we had no collective responsibility to make the world a better place.

Every discussion I had with a leave voter ended with them losing their temper about the unfairness and lack of democratic accountability of the EU fatcats, during these talks I never offered my own opinion, just listened, the anger stored inside was truly palpable.

Both sides of this argument are in turmoil. But one thing I felt (maybe I'm just projecting this from myself) was that people who want to stay in the EU want the world to be a better place and being part of the EU is a step in that direction even though it's far from ideal. Remainers were and still are astonished at the way the country is divided and how mining areas and other parts of the country have been left behind by our successive governments but mostly blame us rather than Europe.

I'm not putting words into peoples mouths here only reporting what people have told me, face to face.

[AlanHolt]

We do pay more into the EU than we get back in funding,[/color][/u][/i][/b] this fundemental fact keeps getting pushed aside

Seriously, the EU is not the overall benefactor to the UK that the propaganda coming from the lucky few in receipt of those paybacks will have you believe.

So you expect the UK to get more out of the EU than it pays in?

You can lay off that putting words in my mouth rubbish, I said nothing of the sort

So why say what you did? It's obvious the eu has running costs. It's obvious we are a wealthier nation and thereof contribute more. There would be no point contributing in order to get the same amount back, and it's impossible to contribute and get more back given our status in the world and the eu.

[Richard Simpson Mark II]

Well, this morning we've had Boris Johnson telling lies at the JCB factory about his Turkey scare tactics and then on the World at One we had Bernard Jenkin telling lies about what the Japanese ambassador had just said on the slot before him.

q) How can you tell is a pro-Brexit politician is lying?

a) You can see his lips moving


https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/ ... -1-5856297

[Brenhden]

Well, this morning we've had Boris Johnson telling lies at the JCB factory about his Turkey scare tactics and then on the World at One we had Bernard Jenkin telling lies about what the Japanese ambassador had just said on the slot before him.

q) How can you tell is a pro-Brexit politician is lying?

a) You can see his lips moving


https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/ ... -1-5856297

That World at One thing was incredible, we heard from the Japanese guy and then a few minutes later the tory denied what he had said. Is this the best we can do for politicians in this country?

[Pint Master]

From my conversations with folk from both sides it seems that remainers are motivated more by vested interests than national ones.

[Richard Simpson Mark II]

Well, this morning we've had Boris Johnson telling lies at the JCB factory about his Turkey scare tactics and then on the World at One we had Bernard Jenkin telling lies about what the Japanese ambassador had just said on the slot before him.

q) How can you tell is a pro-Brexit politician is lying?

a) You can see his lips moving


https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/ ... -1-5856297

That World at One thing was incredible, we heard from the Japanese guy and then a few minutes later the tory denied what he had said. Is this the best we can do for politicians in this country?

And the upper-class twit said he had 'listened carefully'.

the Japanese ambassador had excellent English, and spoke in a very slow and measured way. I can't believe Jenkin misunderstood him. I can only believe he was making it up.

I sincerely hope that someone from the BBC has the balls to challenge him. I'm old enough to remember Sir Robin Day as the BBC's great political interviewer. Always very correct, but if anyone wasn't truthful with him...my god, they were made to regret it. He was one of the few that could go head-to-head with Thatcher on equal terms. He gave his interviewers respect...but by God he demanded it in return.

[Richard Simpson Mark II]

From my conversations with folk from both sides it seems that remainers are motivated more by vested interests than national ones.

Financially, I've done very well (five-figure well) out of Brexit, so far. This is thanks to the crash in the value of the £ which followed the Leave vote.

I don't expect my good fortune to continue once we are out, and am planning for a poorer future.