Ride like a Copper...

Anything goes, and mine's a Guinness.
Gedge
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Re: Ride like a Copper...

Post by Gedge »

picos mestizo wrote:
-Ralph- wrote:
picos mestizo wrote:
@ 9.36 - not totally convinced that holding back on the left for a right hand bend "safe" overtake has absolutely assured there is no concealed entrance on the right.
Why risk it?
Now that was a decent video! Once I realised that the guy behind was an examiner on a test run and ignored what he was doing.

If you look at his head position on that overtake, he was looking down the left hand side of the truck for any entrances, and running his eyes down the solid white line looking for a break in it, whilst looking past the apex of the bend for a clear overtake. Once he decides the overtake is on, you see him take one final look down the left. What he's doing is choosing a fixed point up to which he's "cleared" that side of the road, i.e. he knows there's no entrances. Then his head lean switches from left to right as he pulls out for visibility down the right hand side of the truck. Only when he's out far enough to see the fixed point he chose, does he accelerate. He can now see ahead of that fixed point so knows there are no entrances impeding his entire overtake.

You can use a very similar technique to overtake a truck on a left hand bend, looking down the left and choosing a fixed point on the right hand side of the road, checking it's clear up to that point, then once you pick up that point again on the right as you pass it, you can swapping sides knowing nothing changed in the blind section blocked by the truck, because you've been looking down the left the whole time at what was entering that zone.

Perhaps not worth the risk you could argue for the civilian rider, and to the untrained eye it looks like you've just done a completely blind and suicidal overtake, but for a police rider on an emergency response minutes matter, and that might be his only opportunity to get past that truck.
Like I said above. I'm not convinced that looking up the inside of a very big slab sided lorry & a car gives anybody a 100% clear view of the opposite side of the road for an overtake with absolutely no risk involved.
The importance of his mission shouldn't absolve his responsibillity to other road users & this manoeuvre probably warranted bells & lights.
You disagree because you have not been taught the value of a near side view and how to translate it into a safe overtake...as Bryn says above, other riders / drivers usually have a sharp intake of breath because they don't ( fully) understand the thought process involved..nothing you do on the road is ever 100% safe ,not here is always the chance of a bizarre circumstance occurring ...but in as far as the video went, to the trained eye, what he did was perfectly safe...
-Ralph-
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Re: Ride like a Copper...

Post by -Ralph- »

Agree 100 percent Gedge, but didn't want to say it because people don't like to hear it.

Most people who haven't done advanced training, don't understand advanced riding. That's why I generally dislike "instruction" videos. A little bit of knowledge is always dangerous, and in a 15 minute video the producer can't possibly expect the viewer to have fully understood what he's trying to demonstrate, and carrying out advanced manoeuvres without properly understanding them is dangerous. There are no hard and fast rules, and it can't be learned parrot fashion.

The depth of understanding police riders have in reading, assessing, decision making and planning, vs the likes of me, is like the difference between someone who learned a second language enough to be understood, and somebody who speaks it as mother tongue.

You can't explain it on a forum either, even less so than a video, which is why threads between trained and non-trained riders get so contentious, and non trained riders just think the trained riders are talking out their arse.
"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
Gedge
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Re: Ride like a Copper...

Post by Gedge »

-Ralph- wrote:Agree 100 percent Gedge, but didn't want to say it because people don't like to hear it.

Most people who haven't done advanced training, don't understand advanced riding. That's why I generally dislike "instruction" videos. A little bit of knowledge is always dangerous, and in a 15 minute video the producer can't possibly expect the viewer to have fully understood what he's trying to demonstrate, and carrying out advanced manoeuvres without properly understanding them is dangerous. There are no hard and fast rules, and it can't be learned parrot fashion.

The depth of understanding police riders have in reading, assessing, decision making and planning, vs the likes of me, is like the difference between someone who learned a second language enough to be understood, and somebody who speaks it as mother tongue.

You can't explain it on a forum either, even less so than a video, which is why threads between trained and non-trained riders get so contentious, and non trained riders just think the trained riders are talking out their arse.
Usually why I stay out of them especially as my expertise is on 4 wheels... Much of it transfers across and I think I'm a fair advanced rider, but I have mates that remind me why they are class 1 riders and I'm a class 1 driver....it would be naive to think that this means nobody else has skills or in other ways are a better rider / driver...I certainly know many that can ride faster than me...I gained little apart from my gold plated pension, other than my skills on the road, so to me it's an important part of my 30 years service...
BrynS
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:50 am

Re: Ride like a Copper...

Post by BrynS »

Gedge wrote:
-Ralph- wrote:Agree 100 percent Gedge, but didn't want to say it because people don't like to hear it.

Most people who haven't done advanced training, don't understand advanced riding. That's why I generally dislike "instruction" videos. A little bit of knowledge is always dangerous, and in a 15 minute video the producer can't possibly expect the viewer to have fully understood what he's trying to demonstrate, and carrying out advanced manoeuvres without properly understanding them is dangerous. There are no hard and fast rules, and it can't be learned parrot fashion.

The depth of understanding police riders have in reading, assessing, decision making and planning, vs the likes of me, is like the difference between someone who learned a second language enough to be understood, and somebody who speaks it as mother tongue.

You can't explain it on a forum either, even less so than a video, which is why threads between trained and non-trained riders get so contentious, and non trained riders just think the trained riders are talking out their arse.
Usually why I stay out of them especially as my expertise is on 4 wheels... Much of it transfers across and I think I'm a fair advanced rider, but I have mates that remind me why they are class 1 riders and I'm a class 1 driver....it would be naive to think that this means nobody else has skills or in other ways are a better rider / driver...I certainly know many that can ride faster than me...I gained little apart from my gold plated pension, other than my skills on the road, so to me it's an important part of my 30 years service...
The best part of my service spent on Traffic....got my advanced car ticket in 1991, and bike ticket in 1995... managed to stay on traffic until I retired in 2012..best part of the job bike wise was running bikesafe courses....being paid to ride a bike and pass on a bit of knowledge
picos mestizo
Posts: 4240
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Re: Ride like a Copper...

Post by picos mestizo »

Gedge wrote:
-Ralph- wrote:Agree 100 percent Gedge, but didn't want to say it because people don't like to hear it.

Most people who haven't done advanced training, don't understand advanced riding. That's why I generally dislike "instruction" videos. A little bit of knowledge is always dangerous, and in a 15 minute video the producer can't possibly expect the viewer to have fully understood what he's trying to demonstrate, and carrying out advanced manoeuvres without properly understanding them is dangerous. There are no hard and fast rules, and it can't be learned parrot fashion.

The depth of understanding police riders have in reading, assessing, decision making and planning, vs the likes of me, is like the difference between someone who learned a second language enough to be understood, and somebody who speaks it as mother tongue.

You can't explain it on a forum either, even less so than a video, which is why threads between trained and non-trained riders get so contentious, and non trained riders just think the trained riders are talking out their arse.
Usually why I stay out of them especially as my expertise is on 4 wheels... Much of it transfers across and I think I'm a fair advanced rider, but I have mates that remind me why they are class 1 riders and I'm a class 1 driver....it would be naive to think that this means nobody else has skills or in other ways are a better rider / driver...I certainly know many that can ride faster than me...I gained little apart from my gold plated pension, other than my skills on the road, so to me it's an important part of my 30 years service...
I always thought your expertise was on 1 wheel. :lol: Which is another manoeuvre I find unconvinceing to safely execute on public roads in consideration of other road users. :whistle:
Lightness is everything.

Lightness with Grunt is a Scratcher!

An Adventure is not a tank transfer.
Gedge
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Re: Ride like a Copper...

Post by Gedge »

BrynS wrote:
Gedge wrote:
-Ralph- wrote:Agree 100 percent Gedge, but didn't want to say it because people don't like to hear it.

Most people who haven't done advanced training, don't understand advanced riding. That's why I generally dislike "instruction" videos. A little bit of knowledge is always dangerous, and in a 15 minute video the producer can't possibly expect the viewer to have fully understood what he's trying to demonstrate, and carrying out advanced manoeuvres without properly understanding them is dangerous. There are no hard and fast rules, and it can't be learned parrot fashion.

The depth of understanding police riders have in reading, assessing, decision making and planning, vs the likes of me, is like the difference between someone who learned a second language enough to be understood, and somebody who speaks it as mother tongue.

You can't explain it on a forum either, even less so than a video, which is why threads between trained and non-trained riders get so contentious, and non trained riders just think the trained riders are talking out their arse.
Usually why I stay out of them especially as my expertise is on 4 wheels... Much of it transfers across and I think I'm a fair advanced rider, but I have mates that remind me why they are class 1 riders and I'm a class 1 driver....it would be naive to think that this means nobody else has skills or in other ways are a better rider / driver...I certainly know many that can ride faster than me...I gained little apart from my gold plated pension, other than my skills on the road, so to me it's an important part of my 30 years service...
The best part of my service spent on Traffic....got my advanced car ticket in 1991, and bike ticket in 1995... managed to stay on traffic until I retired in 2012..best part of the job bike wise was running bikesafe courses....being paid to ride a bike !
I never believed I was the fastest..or the smoothest...but I managed to keep my bike ticket for 17 years, so I must have been doing something right ✌
You make me feel very old......basic course 1978, standard course 1980, advanced 1982 and instructors course 1989..... Kept my ticket until 2004 when they stopped Inspectors not posted to traffic from keeping their ticket....that's when I knew I would retire for sure at the end of my 30...
Gedge
Posts: 1576
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Re: Ride like a Copper...

Post by Gedge »

picos mestizo wrote:
Gedge wrote:
-Ralph- wrote:Agree 100 percent Gedge, but didn't want to say it because people don't like to hear it.

Most people who haven't done advanced training, don't understand advanced riding. That's why I generally dislike "instruction" videos. A little bit of knowledge is always dangerous, and in a 15 minute video the producer can't possibly expect the viewer to have fully understood what he's trying to demonstrate, and carrying out advanced manoeuvres without properly understanding them is dangerous. There are no hard and fast rules, and it can't be learned parrot fashion.

The depth of understanding police riders have in reading, assessing, decision making and planning, vs the likes of me, is like the difference between someone who learned a second language enough to be understood, and somebody who speaks it as mother tongue.

You can't explain it on a forum either, even less so than a video, which is why threads between trained and non-trained riders get so contentious, and non trained riders just think the trained riders are talking out their arse.
Usually why I stay out of them especially as my expertise is on 4 wheels... Much of it transfers across and I think I'm a fair advanced rider, but I have mates that remind me why they are class 1 riders and I'm a class 1 driver....it would be naive to think that this means nobody else has skills or in other ways are a better rider / driver...I certainly know many that can ride faster than me...I gained little apart from my gold plated pension, other than my skills on the road, so to me it's an important part of my 30 years service...
I always thought your expertise was on 1 wheel. :lol: Which is another manoeuvre I find unconvinceing to safely execute on public roads in consideration of other road users. :whistle:

I have numerous silly 'skills', any one of which could get me banned......getting older doesn't always mean getting sensible.....
BrynS
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:50 am

Re: Ride like a Copper...

Post by BrynS »

Gedge wrote:
BrynS wrote:
Gedge wrote:
-Ralph- wrote:Agree 100 percent Gedge, but didn't want to say it because people don't like to hear it.

Most people who haven't done advanced training, don't understand advanced riding. That's why I generally dislike "instruction" videos. A little bit of knowledge is always dangerous, and in a 15 minute video the producer can't possibly expect the viewer to have fully understood what he's trying to demonstrate, and carrying out advanced manoeuvres without properly understanding them is dangerous. There are no hard and fast rules, and it can't be learned parrot fashion.

The depth of understanding police riders have in reading, assessing, decision making and planning, vs the likes of me, is like the difference between someone who learned a second language enough to be understood, and somebody who speaks it as mother tongue.

You can't explain it on a forum either, even less so than a video, which is why threads between trained and non-trained riders get so contentious, and non trained riders just think the trained riders are talking out their arse.
Usually why I stay out of them especially as my expertise is on 4 wheels... Much of it transfers across and I think I'm a fair advanced rider, but I have mates that remind me why they are class 1 riders and I'm a class 1 driver....it would be naive to think that this means nobody else has skills or in other ways are a better rider / driver...I certainly know many that can ride faster than me...I gained little apart from my gold plated pension, other than my skills on the road, so to me it's an important part of my 30 years service...
The best part of my service spent on Traffic....got my advanced car ticket in 1991, and bike ticket in 1995... managed to stay on traffic until I retired in 2012..best part of the job bike wise was running bikesafe courses....being paid to ride a bike !
I never believed I was the fastest..or the smoothest...but I managed to keep my bike ticket for 17 years, so I must have been doing something right ✌
You make me feel very old......basic course 1978, standard course 1980, advanced 1982 and instructors course 1989..... Kept my ticket until 2004 when they stopped Inspectors not posted to traffic from keeping their ticket....that's when I knew I would retire for sure at the end of my 30...
That's the way the powers that be think....they're not interested in the skills you've amassed over the years..very short sighted, but its the same everywhere I think ..despite still doing what I loved I'd had enough of the way things were going on traffic, and was happy to take my pension and run....
picos mestizo
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:55 pm

Re: Ride like a Copper...

Post by picos mestizo »

Machine capabillity has not been mentioned & these Police bikes have two very important get you out of gaol devices which none of my bikes have.
So my PERCEPTION of a manoeuvre which is riskier than I want to take is clouded by the judgement of my machines capabillity & of course a video onlookers out of position view, which in this case was taken from the camera on the tailing bike.
Of course I use all the sight advantages of position but in this case a car & a large box lorry would deter my overtaking attempt on the machines that I ride.
My only get you out of gaol should the road surface have turned poor in term of traction would be totally manual.
I suspect the police machines have some sort of automatic traction assist which is a comfort factor when going into a right hand double vehicle overtake.
They also have ABS which against my manual cadence braking in an emergency offers far better stoping & repositioning performance should the need arise.
So it's not only riders capabillity but the rider knowing his bike & using it within it's envelope of performance capabillity. (thumbs)
Lightness is everything.

Lightness with Grunt is a Scratcher!

An Adventure is not a tank transfer.
BrynS
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:50 am

Re: Ride like a Copper...

Post by BrynS »

Yes, you're right that you have to ride the bike according to the performance characteristics of the machine, but none of the bikes that I rode ( K100/Pan Euro 1100 /FJR1300) had traction control, and another way to look at it is that if you have to involve ABS you've not read the situation right and anticipated events as quickly as you could have done ( I'm not saying that totally unexpected things do not happen.... but mostly you can plan and expect the idiot to do something unexpected and allow for it)

Making smooth progress was the mantra B) There's always the fall back, 'If in doubt = Chicken out' :silly:
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