CRF450L Mixed Feelings.

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johnnyboxer
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CRF450L Mixed Feelings.

Post by johnnyboxer » Fri May 03, 2019 5:44 pm

daveuprite wrote:This feeds in to a hot debate on Thumpertalk about the user readiness of brand new enduro bikes.

One school of thought says that any bike bought brand new from a dealership should be absolutely ready and prepared for its intended purpose without any further work on the part of the customer. In other words you should be able to give a KTM dealer 9000 Euros, take delivery of your brand new 350EXCF, ride it straight to your favourite forest trails and use it as intended without expecting to do anything at all before hand.

The other school of thought says that these are performance off-road bikes that need to be set up and prepared by the owner before taking them out in the dirt. Many even strip the bike right back before the first ride, change the manufacturer's bearing grease for their own stuff, add dialectic grease to all electrical connections, dismantle and check linkages, head races, swing arm bearings etc etc and re-torque everywhere.

Personally I'd be a bit unhappy to shell out that kind of money and not be buying a bike that was 'ready to race'. Others think it's naive to expect the bike to be ready for abuse until the owner has done his/her set-up prep.
That is one viewpoint and agreeable if you were buying a Beta RR or a EXC

However the 450L is sold by Honda road bike dealers as a road bike, with a full 2 year road bike warranty - just like the lardy CRF 250L
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daveuprite
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Re: CRF450L Mixed Feelings.

Post by daveuprite » Fri May 03, 2019 9:23 pm

johnnyboxer wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:44 pm
daveuprite wrote:This feeds in to a hot debate on Thumpertalk about the user readiness of brand new enduro bikes.

One school of thought says that any bike bought brand new from a dealership should be absolutely ready and prepared for its intended purpose without any further work on the part of the customer. In other words you should be able to give a KTM dealer 9000 Euros, take delivery of your brand new 350EXCF, ride it straight to your favourite forest trails and use it as intended without expecting to do anything at all before hand.

The other school of thought says that these are performance off-road bikes that need to be set up and prepared by the owner before taking them out in the dirt. Many even strip the bike right back before the first ride, change the manufacturer's bearing grease for their own stuff, add dialectic grease to all electrical connections, dismantle and check linkages, head races, swing arm bearings etc etc and re-torque everywhere.

Personally I'd be a bit unhappy to shell out that kind of money and not be buying a bike that was 'ready to race'. Others think it's naive to expect the bike to be ready for abuse until the owner has done his/her set-up prep.
That is one viewpoint and agreeable if you were buying a Beta RR or a EXC

However the 450L is sold by Honda road bike dealers as a road bike, with a full 2 year road bike warranty - just like the lardy CRF 250L
Yeah, see your point. Beta sell enduro RRS bikes that are warranted and road-legal ready. Most peeps on the Beta section of Thumpertalk are happy with the factory preparation and OK to ride the bikes straight on to the road/trails. But others argue that all owners should carry out their own PDI, and they are quick to lambast anybody who complains when their bike has a rare problem in its first few days, blaming them for not conducting their own 'due diligence'. KTMs are famously worse, with the first buyers of a new model used by the factory as guinea pigs and replacements for development time in Austria. Wise KTM buyers have learnt to wait a year or two while initial glitches are ironed out before they buy into a new model.

Yamaha WRF owners know well that when they buy a new WRF it will immediately need re-tuning, a GYTR kit and a new exhaust before it will run properly. Yam produce bikes in such large volumes that it must conform to every regulation, but cannot yet make a WRF that's ready to ride cleanly in all dirt conditions straight from the crate. Looks like the CRF450L suffers the same issue. Very annoying for new owners who are ten grand lighter for their purchase and immediately face even more outlay to get the bike right. Perhaps the clue was always there in the pre-release publicity (~25bhp from a 450 !).

Tonibe63
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Re: CRF450L Mixed Feelings.

Post by Tonibe63 » Sat May 04, 2019 7:21 am

Nothing new here.

2005, Honda crf250x had very little grease in bearings, rear wheels fell apart on the road, valve heads broke off, no headlight fitted etc etc.

All new vehicles are strangled to meet emmision regs but we modify them.

The argument about wether we really need race bikes/cars on our streets is whole new topic, as is wether most of us (myself included) have the ability to use a standard vehicles full potential even in a race environment let alone in a road environment.

The reality is whilst we continue to pay for the latest 'greatest' there is no reason for manufacturers to change.
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Re: CRF450L Mixed Feelings.

Post by scoobydidler » Sun May 05, 2019 7:33 pm

Tonibe63 wrote:Nothing new here.

2005, Honda crf250x had very little grease in bearings, rear wheels fell apart on the road, valve heads broke off, no headlight fitted etc etc.

All new vehicles are strangled to meet emmision regs but we modify them.

The argument about wether we really need race bikes/cars on our streets is whole new topic, as is wether most of us (myself included) have the ability to use a standard vehicles full potential even in a race environment let alone in a road environment.

The reality is whilst we continue to pay for the latest 'greatest' there is no reason for manufacturers to change.
Nail on the head.

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Re: CRF450L Mixed Feelings.

Post by SteveW » Mon May 06, 2019 9:27 am

daveuprite wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 3:19 pm
This feeds in to a hot debate on Thumpertalk about the user readiness of brand new enduro bikes.

One school of thought says that any bike bought brand new from a dealership should be absolutely ready and prepared for its intended purpose without any further work on the part of the customer. In other words you should be able to give a KTM dealer 9000 Euros, take delivery of your brand new 350EXCF, ride it straight to your favourite forest trails and use it as intended without expecting to do anything at all before hand.

The other school of thought says that these are performance off-road bikes that need to be set up and prepared by the owner before taking them out in the dirt. Many even strip the bike right back before the first ride, change the manufacturer's bearing grease for their own stuff, add dialectic grease to all electrical connections, dismantle and check linkages, head races, swing arm bearings etc etc and re-torque everywhere.

Personally I'd be a bit unhappy to shell out that kind of money and not be buying a bike that was 'ready to race'. Others think it's naive to expect the bike to be ready for abuse until the owner has done his/her set-up prep.

Yes but some folk enjoy "fettling" bikes more than riding them.
I'm pretty sure you could enjoy a 350 EXCF on any trail straight from the dealer.......unless of course the bike KTM produce falls below your exceptional skill levels whist you negotiate your local trails with your mate on his CRF250L.

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Re: CRF450L Mixed Feelings.

Post by daveuprite » Mon May 06, 2019 9:49 am

Yeah well we all know that the biggest decider of good riding is the rider, not the bike. BUT it is massively easier to ride off-road, particularly in the nadgery stuff, on a well-suspended bike. A 350EXC has enormously better suspension than a CRF250. That's what you pay the extra money for. And all riders, novice or otherwise will notice the difference. However the less experienced the rider the less that difference matters, and versa vice (err...).

It takes surprisingly little time for a novice off-roader to gain the skills that would enable that rider to start appreciating the benefits a well-suspended bike brings. Perhaps 2 or 3 years of riding every other weekend would do it. That's not at all 'exceptional skill levels', just the gradual improvement that gets a rider to a level where an upgraded bike brings real benefits. Obviously if you are happy doing gentle greenlaning, or if that is all your local terrain allows, then that's absolutely fine and you may never feel the need to progress beyond a CRF250. They can also tackle tricky stuff too of course, but NOT as well as the same rider on a KTMEXC would do. This isn't bike snobbery; it's just physics really.

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Re: CRF450L Mixed Feelings.

Post by catcitrus » Mon May 06, 2019 10:10 am

firstly the term "offroad" is too general--take a purpose trail bike to an enduro track and you will soon find that getting any air has consequences on landing---and typical enduro tracks(or MX) tend to be graded to an extent and are all about speed. To be honest the KTMs of this world are NOT designed to go slow--but feet up and quick. They can be completely out of their element on rocky or nadgery trails--the seat is high, the gearing is wrong and so on, even the engine characteristics. Lets face it we are under severe pressure NOT to thrash around the lanes--steady and quiet is the future. The other problem/fact is that purpose built trail bikes are not generally a viable product for manufacturers today--just think back a few years when the Japanese produced lots of good trail bikes--but not any more--and thats why the CRF 250 L and Rally are so popular---they are at a good price, will do the miles, and are also quite good enough for just about all trails with just minor modification , if any. The BIG mistake is that people think enduro bikes make good trail bikes--they do NOT for the average rider--they may have good suspension etc but are NOT designed to carry any luggage, fuel and so on--cost a fortune and require excessive maintenance for simple trail use. These days the choice is limited--Honda CRF 250 or Kawa KLX and thats about it. I have a WR250R which is really a very good compromise--its very well built, has long service intervals, has a decent subframe for luggage etc and has all the proper lights etc--and a 350W alternator--there is nothing out there to beat it for trails and distance. However, I'm retired and short so I also have a Kawa SuperSherpa for footing my way through the bogs and ruts of Wales. The Honda 450 is far to expensive--and for trail riding they would have been better uprating the 250 Rally with slightly better suspension and a 300 engine. KTM will be launching their 390 adventure soon--and if the price is right that should be a much better bet.

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Re: CRF450L Mixed Feelings.

Post by Pint Master » Mon May 06, 2019 2:28 pm

I also have a 2016 450 Six Days that I have owned from new with the exception of bar risers has had no fettling in 10,000 miles it has never missed a beat.
As far as buying a CRf250 it wouldn't cope with more extreme trail riding the suspension is weak and the clutch would fail early on.

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Re: CRF450L Mixed Feelings.

Post by johnnyboxer » Mon May 06, 2019 4:02 pm

catcitrus wrote:firstly the term "offroad" is too general--take a purpose trail bike to an enduro track and you will soon find that getting any air has consequences on landing---and typical enduro tracks(or MX) tend to be graded to an extent and are all about speed. To be honest the KTMs of this world are NOT designed to go slow--but feet up and quick. They can be completely out of their element on rocky or nadgery trails--the seat is high, the gearing is wrong and so on, even the engine characteristics. Lets face it we are under severe pressure NOT to thrash around the lanes--steady and quiet is the future. The other problem/fact is that purpose built trail bikes are not generally a viable product for manufacturers today--just think back a few years when the Japanese produced lots of good trail bikes--but not any more--and thats why the CRF 250 L and Rally are so popular---they are at a good price, will do the miles, and are also quite good enough for just about all trails with just minor modification , if any. The BIG mistake is that people think enduro bikes make good trail bikes--they do NOT for the average rider--they may have good suspension etc but are NOT designed to carry any luggage, fuel and so on--cost a fortune and require excessive maintenance for simple trail use. These days the choice is limited--Honda CRF 250 or Kawa KLX and thats about it. I have a WR250R which is really a very good compromise--its very well built, has long service intervals, has a decent subframe for luggage etc and has all the proper lights etc--and a 350W alternator--there is nothing out there to beat it for trails and distance. However, I'm retired and short so I also have a Kawa SuperSherpa for footing my way through the bogs and ruts of Wales. The Honda 450 is far to expensive--and for trail riding they would have been better uprating the 250 Rally with slightly better suspension and a 300 engine. KTM will be launching their 390 adventure soon--and if the price is right that should be a much better bet.
Well said
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Re: CRF450L Mixed Feelings.

Post by boboneleg » Mon May 06, 2019 8:14 pm

Pint Master wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 2:28 pm
I also have a 2016 450 Six Days that I have owned from new with the exception of bar risers has had no fettling in 10,000 miles it has never missed a beat.
As far as buying a CRf250 it wouldn't cope with more extreme trail riding the suspension is weak and the clutch would fail early on.

Try telling that to these three riders, they've managed to ride where any KTM will go, and yes I have a KTM as well :mrgreen:
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