Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

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Old Git Ray
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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by Old Git Ray » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:44 am

WIBO wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:34 am
I just read there was 90 percent vote in favour with only a 42.3 percent turnout.

I would've thought that the way it was being constantly publicised on the run up that there would have been more of a turn out.?

I wouldn't know what one was to do with such a poor level of turn out when it comes to the EU to examine it, but I'd think the fact that it was, on paper, an illegal vote might not count for much?

90 percent of 42 percent.... that's 38 people out of every hundred......the 62 other people who didn't vote tells me that they think it's either OK to remain Spanish or just don't care either way?

The obvious volume of people choosing not to turn out, personally, tells me more than anything...........and perhaps the suits campaigning should examine that also?

Interesting to see what unfolds over the next few days indeed.

:D
We do not know what percentage wanted to vote (either way) but were either forced not to, too frightened to, or unable to, due to the removal of ballot boxes or internet restrictions.

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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by Seminole » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:47 pm

AlanHolt wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:14 am
Well it's true. Only Catalunya wants independence. All 28 eu countries are already independent.

Well...sort of

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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by Redmurty » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:54 am

AlanHolt wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:14 am
Well it's true. Only Catalunya wants independence. All 28 eu countries are already independent.

No country is independent if another entity the EU has supremacy ie the ECJ is the higher court than ours so how is that independent ? we are so independent that we can't initiate our own trade negotiations until we leave the EU, true independence that ;) admittedly the EU has stated that they could not actually stop us because the sanctions would be minimum and we would of left the EU by the time they got around to it.

of course there is no racist element between the Catalans and the Spanish absolutely none, it's only the rest of Europe that could be that course. :?

Up date please Al want do you think the Catalans will do ? independence ?

I think the Catalans need to go a bit like the UK now if we decide to stay in the EU we will be reamed a new one, a very hard remain will ensue and the other 27 will makes sure it cost's us and we have even less say, I see the rest of Spain doing the same to the Catalans

cheers Spud ;)
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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by AlanHolt » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:23 am

Each eu country has its own laws and courts, they are independent. The inability to establish trade deals is because of the rules of the club we still belong to. We are allowed to do what we want with other non-eu countries because we are independent.

Anyway, Catalunya. If the Catalans declare independence, article 155 will enable Spain to take over the region. If Catalunya doesn't declare independence, they will appear weak and lose support and remain the financial bitch of Spain. It's a lose lose situation, unless they are prepared to fight.
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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by Redmurty » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:50 am

AlanHolt wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:23 am
Each eu country has its own laws and courts, they are independent. The inability to establish trade deals is because of the rules of the club we still belong to. We are allowed to do what we want with other non-eu countries because we are independent.

Anyway, Catalunya. If the Catalans declare independence, article 155 will enable Spain to take over the region. If Catalunya doesn't declare independence, they will appear weak and lose support and remain the financial bitch of Spain. It's a lose lose situation, unless they are prepared to fight.

we cannot establish a trade deal with the States or Canada or any other country they have to go through the EU, therefore we are not independent, we might have our "own" courts but the ECJ is the superior court and can tell ours what to do so therefore we are not independent.

I think Catalonia has to go for it now as I can't see Spain backing down any, perhaps this is what the Catalonia government was after ?

cheers Spud ;)
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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by AlanHolt » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:06 pm

But the UK has its own language, currency and laws, which makes it independent. Being in a club means you obey the club rules, it doesn't mean you give up your identity. If the UK wasn't independent, it wouldn't be allowed to leave the eu because the eu doesn't want it to.
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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by AlanHolt » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:08 pm

A Spanish judge has ordered that the two leaders of the Catalan independence movement are to be imprisoned for sedition, which carries a 4 year minimum and 15 year maximum sentence.
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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by Simon_100 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:36 am

AlanHolt wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:08 pm
A Spanish judge has ordered that the two leaders of the Catalan independence movement are to be imprisoned for sedition, which carries a 4 year minimum and 15 year maximum sentence.
Imprisoned without trail Alan.

I've been sitting out on this one as the situation is moving so quickly and you've pretty much had the nail on the head all the way so far. Besides, while crossing the frontier yesterday I drove under the barrels of two automatic assault rifles levelled at ordinary citizens by the Guardia Civil* so it's getting far too heavy to just shut up.

Apart from the obvious, I regard this as the total failure of the European Project, when what amounts to an extreme right wing dictatorship - few people seem to realise how extreme these people really are, denial perhaps? - by a minority government that failed to get a majority over two elections and runs the country by 'decree' rather than debate.

Where are the world's leaders, where is the diplomacy, where is the democracy and where is the future of the EU when an entire nation - that's what Catalonia is defined as in the precious 1978 Spanish Constitution - of seven million people has less fundamental human rights that the Kurdish people in Turkey who did have the right of expression in there recent referendum.

But I seem to be in good company, here's one voice in the wilderness going unheard,

"The constitutional crisis that is unfolding in Spain calls for consultation and not confrontation"
Kofi Annan · Chair of The Elders

But what we have is,

"Spain jails Catalonia's civil society leaders for organising peaceful demonstrations. Sadly, we have political prisoners again"

Carles Puigdemonte, democratically elected president of Catalonia.

Regs

Simon

* that was at the time when Puigdemont was due to make his speech un response to Rajoy's 'ultimatum' - later in the afternoon we were back in Catalonia and we witnessed a massing of what appeared to be Guardia Civil reservists - middled aged blokes with civilian haircuts - gathering ahead of the announcement of the judgement ...
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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by AlanHolt » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:06 am

The Spanish Biker wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:36 am

Imprisoned without trail Alan.
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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by Redmurty » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:57 am

AlanHolt wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:06 pm
But the UK has its own language, currency and laws, which makes it independent. Being in a club means you obey the club rules, it doesn't mean you give up your identity. If the UK wasn't independent, it wouldn't be allowed to leave the eu because the eu doesn't want it to.

you are not independent if someone's else courts can tell you what your courts can and cannot do, if we were independent then we would not have our courts being inferior to the ECJ. How does the Catalonian situation differ from the British are they not independent by your criteria.

Catalonia , is the Catalonian government being clever allowing the Spanish government to push back hard with a hope that the Catalonians will scream "independence" louder. I am not sure at all about locking people up are they hoping to scare the Catalonian government ?

Cheers for the updates Al and Simon glad you are both well, beds here if you need them ;)

cheers Spud ;)
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