Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

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AlanHolt
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Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by AlanHolt » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:22 pm

Due to rising tensions regarding the referendum taking place on Sunday (and Madrid trying to stop it), the general advice we have been given (as an expat) is that people who aren't eligible to vote should stay away from towns and cities on Sunday. Madrid has moved thousands of police officers from other parts of Spain to Catalunya to ensure the referendum doesn't take place. Tens of thousands of ballot papers have been confiscated, the Guardia Civil have been sent to take over control of the Catalunya police force, anyone who allows a building to be used as a polling station could face up to 15 years in prison, etc, etc. The politics behind it is fascinating, and the heavy-handed way Madrid is trying to stop it is appalling.

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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by Redmurty » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:26 am

Thought about you and Simon the other day plus a few others I know down that way, be safe all of you.

Been watching this with interest, I'm not sure what the out come would of been if the referendum had been allowed to go ahead unimpeded ? From what I've read the people of Catalonia just what to vote, whether they would actually return a vote for independence or not.

I think the heavy handed approach by Madrid may of increased the volume of the shout for freedom.

I think the EU is in a little bit of difficulty over this one as they are calling for Northern Ireland to stay in the single market after Brexit so will they then offer an independent Catalonia the same and how would that go down with Spain.

What is Spain's constitutional rulings for a separation within it's borders ?

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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by AlanHolt » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:11 am

My Catalan friends all say they will be voting in favour of independence, but the feel they will never get it. What they may get is autonomy, like the Basque region, but the would seriously affect the rest of Spain financially. The Basque region don't send any money to Madrid, and likewise they don't get any back, but they remain a part of Spain.

Its an uncertain time, and quite worrying that they have deployed 10,000 extra Guardia Civil officers to the area, arrested 14 senior Catalan officials and seized bank accounts to ensure the people don't express an opinion. What next, an end to elections?

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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by Redmurty » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:33 am

AlanHolt wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:11 am
My Catalan friends all say they will be voting in favour of independence, but the feel they will never get it. What they may get is autonomy, like the Basque region, but the would seriously affect the rest of Spain financially. The Basque region don't send any money to Madrid, and likewise they don't get any back, but they remain a part of Spain.

Its an uncertain time, and quite worrying that they have deployed 10,000 extra Guardia Civil officers to the area, arrested 14 senior Catalan officials and seized bank accounts to ensure the people don't express an opinion. What next, an end to elections?
serious food for thought mate,

Be safe

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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by WIBO » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:35 am

Objectively specking .....they're going against a Supreme Court ruling that it's illegal .....defying the law of the land as it were, i.e. Spain.

You have to enforce against an illegal action or if you let it go ahead the ruling is pointless.

Whether you agree with the ruling is another thing but surely you should respect that even though it didn't go 'your way' A bit like some people and the Brexit scenario?

What about all of those that don't want independence and enjoy it as it is?

At least they're not murdering like those other idiots in Basque used to.


Just one in for the mix.


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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by AlanHolt » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:57 am

I agree with upholding the law, but Catalunya had a referendum in 2014, and as we know, a referendum is merely a way of asking for the opinion of the people. The result doesn't have to be acted upon. If people are unable to express an opinion, that means an end to democracy and the start of dictatorship. Rajoy wanted to send the army into Catalunya to control the people, but in doing so Spain would have been thrown out of the EU for using force against its own people, so he is using every other method possible to suppress the Catalans. This is now a fight to have a say and if it doesn't go ahead, it will be like winding the clock back to the Franco era.

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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by WIBO » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:39 am

I concur.... indeed.....maybe there's an element of Franco ingrained in the old timers.

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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by Redmurty » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:48 am

AlanHolt wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:57 am
I agree with upholding the law, but Catalunya had a referendum in 2014, and as we know, a referendum is merely a way of asking for the opinion of the people. The result doesn't have to be acted upon. If people are unable to express an opinion, that means an end to democracy and the start of dictatorship. Rajoy wanted to send the army into Catalunya to control the people, but in doing so Spain would have been thrown out of the EU for using force against its own people, so he is using every other method possible to suppress the Catalans. This is now a fight to have a say and if it doesn't go ahead, it will be like winding the clock back to the Franco era.
some very good points, and that's how I understood what most of the people were saying they just wanted to vote, the problem for the Spanish government and then the EU is what a pro independence vote would of meant for both parties.

It appears the EU are saying if Catalans went for independence they would be excluded from the EU and would have to re apply but if you voted Brexit you then of course have to pay a massive divorce bill :o :shock: :lol: perhaps we should of just declared independence ;)

thought this was quite interesting from a very pro EU paper

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... f-catalans

another point of view from a very anti EU paper

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/859 ... -of-Europe

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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by Seminole » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:43 am

I wonder
How would the rest of the Uk feel if Scotland decided to have an illegal second referendum without U.K. Gov consent?
Personally I don't know the true depth of feeling on this, but hope the Spanish police and military don't revert to their old ways.

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Re: Catalunya, Spain, 1st October

Post by Redmurty » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:28 am

Seminole wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:43 am
I wonder
How would the rest of the Uk feel if Scotland decided to have an illegal second referendum without U.K. Gov consent?
Personally I don't know the true depth of feeling on this, but hope the Spanish police and military don't revert to their old ways.

I'm pretty sure that we wouldn't send in armed police to make mass arrests and storm polling stations (well I hope we wouldn't) :?

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